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"Black Culture:" By Popular Demand
By Achance Posted in Culture — Comments (71) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
This is posted elsewhere as a comment in response to ZootSuit. Some requested that I post it as a diary so here it is with a few afterthoughts added. There's little original thinking here. For those interested in sources or further study, I'd recommend "The Strange Career of Jim Crow," C. Vann Woodward's magisterial though deeply flawed history of racial policy in The South, a work many consider to have been the greatest influence on the Brown Court in setting aside de jure segregation. See also, Woodward's "The Burden of Southern History," Genovese's "Time on the Cross," and if you'd like to go further, Cash's "The Mind of the South" and Twelve Southerner's "I'll Take My Stand." Southern intellectual history really isn't an oxymoron.
Slavery no doubt eliminated African culture, actually many African cultures as the slaves were not homogenous culturally. That factual statement only goes so far. Most of the Africans brought here involuntarily came from hunter-gatherer cultures. Had those Africans come here voluntarily in a first class cabin rather than chained to the below-decks of a slave ship, the African hunter-gatherer culture would have been just as surely eliminated as it was largely an unsuccessful culture in the New World after contact. The Native Americans tried, some still do, to persist in it and by and large remain dependents on the majority culture.
What gets lost in the "African Culture" discussion is that importation was ended in 1808 and the "African American" population at that time was a little under a half million people. By 1860, the slave population was something just over 3 million people, almost entirely as the result of natural increase.(One cannot say there was NO importation after 1808, Americans particularly have a long and storied tradition of smuggling, but both the US and, especially, the British Navies patrolled very aggressively against slavers and most authorities concede that little of the increase was from illegal importation.). Thus, the African cultures were supplanted first by a rural Southern slave culture. After 1865, the slave culture was modified into a rural Southern agricultural labor culture that for both poor, unlanded Blacks and poor, unlanded Whites was a brutal peonage that lasted for the better part of a century.
Prior to the New Deal and WWII, the daily lives of poor Southern Whites and poor Southern Blacks were equally impoverished both materially and intellectually. In matters of law and privilege, poor Blacks were subject to the whims of all Whites, but poor Whites were equally subject to the whims of better off Whites. The Southern ruling class suppressed, brutally if necessary, anyone, Black or White, who tried to rise above their "station." The White laboring class was at the mercy of threats to replace them with Blacks should they get "uppity," and the Black laboring class was at the mercy of the Sheriff and the Klan or its less formal successors should they get "uppity." Most of the thrust of New Deal Era agricultural and labor policy was to get the surplus agricultural labor off the farm and out of the rural South, sometimes even by forced dispossesion.
WWII's labor demands allowed much of the displaced White labor force to relocate or to find more attractive wage work off the farm. Nothing much was done for the displaced Black labor force. By the '50s and '60s, changing economics and mechanization left the Southern Black agricultural labor force as dispossesed both culturally and economically as were the contrabands who followed the Union armies during and just after the Civil War. Southern Blacks, the vast bulk of the Black population, were literally cast adrift into a society for which they were almost totally unprepared. The transition was wrenching even for the more privileged Whites forced off the farm and into the industrial economy. One need only look at the themes of much of so-called Country Music of the times to see the expressions of longing and disorientation in songs such as "I Want to go Home," about a rural Southerner working in a Detroit auto plant. Few Blacks had even that opportunity and as they were forced from the farm, they were forced to the cities and the Black ghettos.
The US callously abandoned the contrabands and freed slaves (and unlanded Southern Whites as well) to a century of peonage while it imported masses of immigrant labor for a booming industrial America. The Contrabands languished as the US imported Irish and Chinese labor to build the Trans-Continental Railroad just as Antwan languishes on the street corner while Juan stands at the Home Depot looking for work. Even the Great Society and its aftermath has preferred to subsidize the ghetto rather than take the hard steps that would be necessary to eliminate it. Like their rural White counterparts of a generation before, the great problem is that people so situated cannot see themselves situated otherwise. Plenty of White Southerns have slid into dependency and professional victimhood, but it is not encouraged. The self-styled Black leaders have embraced dependency and like their slave forebears confine their vision of "doing well" to demanding that Massa, in today's World, the government, provides new shoes and clothes and plenty of food. The situation fairly cries for a conservative solution that can show a young Black man or woman a future not based on either dependency or criminality or which does not have the nagging self-doubt imposed by affirmative action programs.
I came out of the rural South of the '50s and '60s and by my teenaged years knew full well that there was no future there for me, literally and figuratively, and with the certain knowlege that the only people who gave a damn about that fact were my parents who didn't know how to teach me to make another future for myself; they were totally stuck in the old Southern world of small towns and subsistence agriculture. By the Grace of God and by dint of hard work and good fortune - and a few, a very few but very important, mentors, I managed to make my way out of the dark trap of that old world. I wish I knew the way to show so many who need it so much their own way to a vision of a new future for themselves.
There really is no thing as a "Black culture." Unfortunately, the African cultures (please note the plural) of my African-Americans ancestors was raped from them by slavery. As a response, Blacks have created their own culture, which is natural considering the circumstances and even helpful in many ways, but we have created this mythical "Black culture" that really is nothing more than a rejection of the dominate culture around them, which is unfortunate because there are many things positive about the dominate culture here in America.
In other words, what many (Black and White, liberal and conservative) commonly refer to as "Black culture" is really nothing more than a rejection of the culture around them. That is wrong and self-destructive.
I will even add that as a conservative myself, I respect the role of "culture" in an individual person's life, progress and self-identity. Indeed, historically, groups have progressed within larger communities in direct proportion to the strength of their cultural identity. Consider, for example, Jews in Europe and ethnic Chinese in southeast Asia; both groups have used their strong ethnic identities as a means and motivation to progress within the larger society. Even here in the United States, ethnic identities have been the impetus for progress of individuals as they progressed through American society; even as they assimilated within it. In that regard, we can not only consider successful Jews, Italians, and Koreans in American but also successful WASPs.
One's ethnic identity provides more than simply a material base for an individual's progress (e.g. if I am a merchant, most of my early customers would be from my neighborhood, which almost by definition would be of my same ethnic background), it also provides a psychology and even "spiritual" (bad choice of words but I think it holds) strength. I would say that one's ethnic identity is a source of self-confidence but it goes beyond that; I just can't think of a better word or term at the moment. Thomas Sowell has written a few books about this subject.
But again, slavery raped African-Americans of a culture. The unfortunate consequences are that we substitute "race" for "culture" and we mistakenly define our "culture" in no better terms than "we are not White." As an unfortunate example of that, you need look no further than Michelle Obama's rant above.
Looking at history, I do not believe any group of people has truly progressed, succeeded and integrated within American society without first taking advantage of their cultural strengths. Therefore I am a Black nationalist who seeks to recognize, create and strengthen a "Black culture" that truly is self-defined and an impetus for personal success. For despite many of the negative aspects of what is termed today as "Black culture," there is a strong current of self-reliance and self-determination in it.
****
And my response to his reponse, which is the blog above
The only addition (or modification, if you like) is that I think much of that "dependency" mentality or culture came as a perverse reaction to try to define Black culture as "not being White." I will even say that, considering race relations in America, it is understandable that African-Americans would want to culturally define themselves as "not White." However, it is wrong and inexcusable that in trying to define themselves as "not White," many have and are rejecting the many great things and positive cultural values about America.
Moreover, there was a positive Black culture that was being developed before. Did you know that until the 1940's that Black men had a higher employment rate than White men (and higher than both Black and White women, too)?
Think about it. When Black men could be lynched for walking on the wrong side of the street and there were perfectly legal signs that said "no 'n-words' need apply" Black men could find and hold a job.
And during that same time period, African-Americans, while we had a higher illegitimate birth rate, had a higher marriage rate than their White counterparts. Again, what happened.
Indeed, when I hear Black men and their apologists complain that the reason they cannot stay with and support their families is because of slavery, I am outraged! Do they realize that the first things Blacks did once manumitted was to search for and collect their family members separated by slavery.
Indeed, some estimates are that a quarter of all African-American slaves attempted to escape at one time or another: Think about it, in an era when the country justly respected the idea of Federalism, escaped slaves were such a national issue that Federal fugitive slave laws were enacted. But, contrary to popular belief, the major destination for the escaped slaves was not (initially) the (free) North but to other parts of the (slaveholding) South to first reunite with their family members.
But what happens today?
I argue that it is all cultural. And as a "Black nationalist," I want to restore that strong, pro-family and pro-enterprise culture that we were developing before.
But again, Achance, I think we agree.
*****
Unrepentant Black nationalist, Unapologetic Black conservative!
culture to replace the much abused concept of race is a superb idea.
and may you live long and prosper to better accomplish it!
Especially in terms of culture vs. race.
Personally, I abhor the hyphenated American. Of any type.
Perhaps I need to write my own diary laying out my perspective on the detrimental effects I feel it has on our pschye as a nation.
I suspect many would think I am being simplistic and naive.
Hmm. Something to consider.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a typical, small town, white girl...
many of the pathologies in black culture today to the pathologies of the scots irish culture they inherited from the poor whites they lived with in the south.
But I would say while I find Achance's essay quite impressive and brilliant, I would add some caveats:
1 - Blacks were doing pretty damn good from 1865-1965 as they went Up from Slavery (and yes, I am alluding to the influence of Booker T). McWhorter argues in Losing the race THAT LBJ's ADOPTION OF NY WELFARE POLICIES KICKED THE BLACK MAN OUT THE HOUSE AND made Uncle Sam daddy.
2 - many of the problems of blacks are due to the general problem of loss of values that came with the 60s
3 - The rural south is what Achance is most familiar with. The fact is that the New Deal was the ending of reconstruction and the beginning of the new south and that a new south was growing in the late 60s along I-85 and elsewhere - far away from Achance's southern jawja wasteland. He could have moved to Atlanta and done as well as in Alaska.
more later
But I would add that Blacks have much to be proud of and they should dwell on that, from Attucks-Oprah. America wouold not be America without the grand contributions of blacks.
To me, America is black and white, and I love them all (and all y'all Mexicans and Chinese, and Cherokee, and Japanese, and Korean, too)
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
Disagree, GC.
by Achance
Very few people, Black or White, were "doing damn good" in The South until the New Deal and WWII, and lots weren't, especially Blacks, even after WWII. Blacks in the rural South did, however, have much more stable family lives in that period than they did either in the cities at the time or, especially, today. I agree that Great Society welfare programs in combination with the diaspora from the rural areas greatly exacerbated the problems.
And, just for the record, he was "doing damn good" in Atlanta, but I hated the place and hate cities generally. As Charlie Daniels said, "My idea of a good time is walking my property line." That and taking off on my boat into absolute wilderness. Fresh king crab ain't bad either.
In Vino Veritas
and wwii didn't I?
Who is "he"? I said that YOU could have prospered in Atlanta had you decided to move there.
Achance, you could excel anywhere!
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
Just funky syntax, GC.
by Achance
I've been alternating between this board and plotting navigational charts all day, so I'm a little batty - gotta' go take a test in a few minutes.
I DID go to ATL, the city a quarter million Confederate soldiers died to prevent and did real well there. How I made some of the money is something we won't discuss in much detail, but that's the way ATL was. Among the things I sold when I decided to check out was an almost new 450 SEL 7.3 that I'd paid cash for, not a bad ride for a White Trash Boy from the depths of South Jawjah.
I just don't like cities. Oh, I can live in them, work in them, put on a Brooks Brothers suit and fit right in in them, but for me it's like what the Blacks used to call "passing." I LIKE being a half-crazy Redneck in WalMart Camo pants and a tee shirt with my Mini-14 on the gunrack in my truck. And, by the way, I look damned good in a Richmond Depot Type III CS Army uniform with a P1853 Enfield on my shoulder, so don't short me on the Southron side.
In Vino Veritas
I'm just a city boy I guess! from Spartanburg - too many redlights to count!
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
Oh, Atlanta,
by blooch
got to git back to you!
My dad was the product of a Seneca girl and a Baltimore boy.He grew up in Baltimore, but spent his summers down south at granddaddy's farm. As soon as he could,he got out of Baltimore--it was already dying by 1950--to see the world in the Air Force. When he was discharged, he headed straight for Georgia Tech. He met a girl from Pickens who had run off to Atlanta. They married, stayed in Atlanta and raised a family.
Dad moved to Walhalla when my mom died, but my sister and I never left. We are the few. Most, like Achance,came here to make money, make a name for themselves, or make an escape from somewhere else and then move on. It's still that way. Like they say, "If you want to get to Heaven, you have to change planes in Atlanta."
"ma deuce says no truce"
Such a great tune....!
by jdub19
" Got to love the Lord for making things like that."
Morally Compromised
the 13th wealthiest people on Earth.
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
Nostalgia for what never was:
by FrankAtl
" Blacks were doing pretty damn good from 1865-1965 "
I'm white. I grew up in Jacksonville,Florida in the 60s-70s with very little contact with Black Culture.
However, I was exposed to the tensions. My Dad and Grandmother finished most Sunday dinners with a good long rant about how virtually every problem in society could be traced to the influence of the Jews and the sorriness of the Coloreds.
I reasoned early on that NOT EVERY PROBLEM could possibly be the fault these groups. Ahhhh, Dad and Nanny, bless you. Your hysteria saved me from racism.
revealed a mammouth acheivemnet by blacks in progress despite jim crow. It was a compliment to blacks. And many older black conservatives point to the health of the black family and values from the 40s-60s. They lived it. It was.
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
in the 40s and 50s jibes with my best older black friends who bemoan the "urban renewal" and other 60s liberal BS that raped the black middle class property owners.
My best friend, while mayor of my home town in SC STOPPED the takings of black's property so developers could come in and move them to the projects.
more later
great comment man
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
Zoot this is anecdotal and YMMV
by pilgrim
Whenever I have talked to my black friends about having an interest in tracing their family tree back in time they usually tell they are not interested and why. They believe that if they really dug into it they would find white people who raped and mistreated black people, and it would just put them in a dark angry mood. I've never really thought of any real good answer for them on this concern. I do think that any effort you take to dig up your past needs to be done with your emotions in check. The past is past, and getting angry about it is not going to change what happened in the past.
Extreme taxation, excessive controls, oppressive government competition with business … frustrated minorities and forgotten Americans are not the products of free enterprise.Ronald Reagan
We can't choose our family or our past and some might not live up to either our family legend or our self-conception. In the case of Blacks, at least Southern Blacks, they can take some comfort, albeit a cold comfort, in the fact that there isn't likely to be any record of such "unpleasant" things. I used to hang on some Civil War boards and I have both Henderson's Roster of the Confederate Soldiers of Georgia and The Official Record of the War of the Rebellion on CD, so it was easy for me to look up people and events. People would often post with some family story of their hero in Gray who died for cause and country on the reddened plains of Virginia. I'd look him up and he'd have only state militia service or be a deserter. I'd write them back and say, "Do you really want to know?" I can say with that somewhat perverse Rebel pride that on 4 Mar 62, ten of my ancestors on my Mother's side, brothers, cousins, uncles, answered the Confederacy's call and on 12 Apr 65 only three were still alive. Good story, huh? It leaves out the fact that one of the three deserted and took the Oath on 6 Apr 65 and the other two were "last on record, Dec. 64." In other words they'd gone home because of the families' entreaties after Sherman came through, but since they didn't actually take the oath, they don't show as deserters.
That's just my experience, but anyone who embarks on a genealogical study has to be prepared for some surprises, some unpleasant. Still worth the doing, though.
In Vino Veritas
Fascinating study and post Achance
by SG Lominac
I'm an amateur geneaologist and have studied my familie's involvement in the Civil war including those killed/wounded fighting in SC and Ga units. You may have even run across some under the names Laminack/Lominack/Lominick etc. I have given those interested the same advice you did; be prepared for unpleasantness when you dig, including slave ownership.
I was also interested in your reference to charts and plotting. I was the navigation department Master Chief of an aircraft carrier when I retired 2 1/2 years ago and also hold a small tonnage Captain's license. Plotting can be tedious when you go through all the scenarios on the CG exam. Be thorough. Good luck.
What the hell is going on out here? - Vince Lombardi
Thanks for the good wishes.
by Achance
I passed, but I missed one. It was the last question, I wanted to be done, so I rushed it; took the reciprocal on a set and drift problem. Oh well, "D" is for Done.
In Vino Veritas
Set and drift
by SG Lominac
for voyage planning on these new fangled computer charts has taken all the fun out of plotting. We just plug in lat and long from point A to B and the computer tells you how far left/right/ahead/behind track you are. It's getting so the only nav skills left is on the piloting side. I miss the paper. Set and drift as it applies to the republican party shows us behind and well left of track. Congrats and I'll stop the threadjack here.
What the hell is going on out here? - Vince Lombardi
Obama- you walked into
the party like you were
walking onto a yatch
Just a few notes
by Marcus Traianus
Not to be picky but a few points;
- Slaves were indeed captured from a variety of different tribes. But if I remember correctly the geographic dispersion was not overt (mostly West Africa).
- To say they were "hunter gatherers" seems to be an issue of some debate. There is enough evidence to say some were also farmers. In fact,besides the back breaking labor they provided to make this country rich on agriculture, there is a belief they also brought farming techniques especially in staples such as rice.
- To assume cultural homogeneity as a byproduct of geographic proximity is a mistake often made. For example the native tribes of North America certainly did not share the same culture. Nonetheless, they did share many of the same cultural traits. In this regard, African slaves also brought great traditions of song, storytelling, folk art, diet etc. which remain prevalent, albeit more contemporary, in many parts of their community today.
Sorry to be so didactic.
"Nec Aspera Terrent"
bene ambula et redambula
Contributor to The Minority Report
Quibbles"
by Achance
I'm no great student of African anthropology, but I agree that some had at least some farming tradition though the farming was a far cry from the tobacco, rice, long-staple cotton and indigo plantations of late-17th and 18th Century America along the Southeastern seaboard. From my reading, the most valuable attribute the Africans brought was that they were much less susceptible to disease in the fever-swamp environment of, particularly, rice, indigo, and sea island cotton growing areas. They were also much less susceptible to rebellion than the English and Irish indentured servants they replaced in the aftermath of Bacon's Rebellion.
Some also came from the tribes that engaged in a nomadic herder-grazer culture, a culture not unlike that developing among poorer Whites in the piedmont regions from Virginia to Georgia. The White version of that culture was largely pushed westward to ultimately come the Old West cowboy of legend, many of whom were actually Black, with the advent of the cotton gin in, I think, 1793, which made production of short-staple cotton possible in the piedmont regions.
The reason that it was generally believed at the Founding that slavery was a diminishing institution was that the seaboard tobacco, rice, sea island cotton, and indigo plantations were about played out and subject to considerable foreign competition. The cotton gin changed all that and the antebellum world of King Cotton and industrial agriculture using slave labor was born. In fact, by the second quarter of the 19th Century, the most valuable product in trade of the old tobacco region of Virginia was the slaves no longer needed for the diminishing agriculture there.
Hey, I can do didactic too. I can even do pedantic.
In Vino Veritas
lasted much longer, regardless of the war. The rise of capitalism and industrialization in the world would have left it as an economic backwater much as the region was with sharecropping.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
Don't know, kyle8.
by Achance
The greatest mistake the Confederate States made was in their attempted use of the "cotton weapon" by withholding cotton from the market - except for all the black market cotton going both the England and the Continent and to the North. Had they declared for free trade and made NO, Charleston, Savannah, et al. open, duty free ports, it is an interesting question as to how the British and others might have reacted to the Yankee blockade. Had they decided they wanted the trade and the US wasn't going to stop them from having it, History might well have been written with a different accent. The Brits and others would have continued their pressure on the CSA to eliminate or at least soften slavery, but it would have proven much more durable than some might think. Hell, it existed in all but name for another century after 1865.
In Vino Veritas
So here we go….
by Marcus Traianus
Reviewing the geographic origins of African Slaves, most came from West Africa in concentrations from what was called Benin, Biafra and later West Central Africa. Many of the concentrations were around the Niger River/Niger River Basin (with the exception of lower “West Africa”). It is sometimes alleged that many of the slaves in Carolina and other US rice producing areas (such as Georgia, which remember prohibited slavery until about 1749) came from Gambia and Senegal where rice was ingrained in the culture and traditions (However, this is a worthy of debate). For example, rice was offered to spirits and the tools used to pound rice were seen as a sign of stature; but I digress.
Nonetheless, many of the aforementioned areas were historically known to be regions of substantial rice production commencing somewhere around 800 B.C. and expanding rapidly outward (geographically) into the 16th century. This was somewhat abated as Europeans moved into Africa and started forcing the native population to grow so-called cash crops such as peanuts and interestingly enough, cotton. The latter crops outgrowth to America was therefore not incidental as thought by some. Remember, agriculture at the time was currency and a source of wealth. So in a sense, one could say the African paradigm, including slaves, was transferred to America. This was especially true given the ideal growing conditions in the American South, which amongst other factors, resulted in more efficient production thus rendering the importation of slaves a fait accompli.
I would posit the use of slave labor in agriculture predates the antebellum period as there was a large increase in rice production, which included the use of slave labor, as early as 1700-1720. The slave population (about 4 million in 1860) and the price of slaves did grow (from 1720 to 1800 the price almost doubled) which directly correlated to an increase in the price of crops such as rice. So argumentatively, cotton gin and other efficiencies aside, the slave population was growing albeit competition and price was indeed increasing. Therefore how any person could believe in the late 18th century that slavery was diminishing is certainly suspect. This is further evidence by our founder’s conversations at the 1787 convention and writings thereabout. It was actually more an argument about economics, unity and the limits of federalism than a demurral that slavery would be an issue resolving itself over time.
"Nec Aspera Terrent"
bene ambula et redambula
Contributor to The Minority Report
Hardly my experience
by Jack Savage
Most of this on target, particularly the second to last paragraph. But...
"I came out of the rural South of the '50s and '60s and by my teenaged years knew full well that there was no future there for me.."
"...I managed to make my way out of the dark trap of that old world."
I am sorry that your experience was such. My roots have been in the rural South for as far back as I have been able to trace, and my experience, and my family's experience, have been much, much different than yours. If you want to blame your family, instead of "The South", that's OK, but maybe you should leave it there.
Our formative experiences are probably pretty close to being the same, but when you default to the "no future in the South" meme, I feel like I have a pebble in my shoe. The only reason I am posting this reply is that I would really hate for anyone here to think that is, or even WAS, the case for everyone, or even a significant majority.
FWIW, every one of my ancestors was a farmer according to available records. Some owned land, most did not. But ALL of them, save one, were listed as "Can Read, Can Write". That probably helped.
The South
by Arkie Liberal
I'm not entirely sure the idea of the South makes much sense anymore, if it ever did. There are at least distinct Souths now--the "New South"--metropolitan growth and booster oriented, typified by cities such as Atlanta, Nashville, Dallas-Ft. Worth and Houston. There's the old urban South--New Orleans and Memphis, which may have as much in common with rust belt economies as it does with the New South. Then there's the rural South of small towns and even this can be divided into areas dominated by a planter class and those that weren't.
Living in a small rural town, I sense a lot of what Achance expressed among the young people I teach. I'm not entirely sure that attitude is always warranted. Many young people underestimate the satisfaction of being a big fish in a small pond, and hurry off to Dallas or Houston as soon as they have their degree. On the other hand, the drawback to staying is that you're known--it can be difficult to escape the role designated by your family or early life choices.
I think an ambitious, bright person can do very well here if they recognize the opportunities. We need to do more to cultivate and encourage our potential entrepreneurs, and recognize that's where our future is, not the next call center or some other low wage industry.
I understand that
by Jack Savage
I think every young person has the "I can't wait to get the hell out of here" desire, regardless of where they live. I have spoken to kids who lived in NJ, PA, VT, CO, CA, etc that expressed the same thoughts.
For that reason, I think it has a lot more to do with what is *in* you than what is around you. I very much agree with your last paragraph.
Romance v. History,
by Achance
personal anecdote v. data: Most Southerners, especially "old family" Southerners are hopeless romantics about life in The South, and I can be as guilty of that as the next one. My family has been on the same piece of land since they came down from Virginia and North Carolina and got it in the Creek Cession Lottery in 1795. I still pay taxes on some of it; wouldn't dare sell it just in case there is a reception committee of those old folks waiting for me sometime, somewhere. I came up landed, educated, and in the second tier of the Southern caste system as it existed in the mid-20th Century; not quite on a par with the "big men" and their families but welcome in their company, known and spoken to on the street, accepted in the "right" groups as the men and boys gathered to talk around the Square when Court was in session or at the gin, feed and seed store, or tobacco warehouse. My family had a certain wistfullness that could tinge on bitterness for "old times not forgotten," one that they shared with other descendents of the old families. The list of prominent families in the area in 1860 is very different from a list made in, say, 1880, and there are a lot of shallow graves in Virginia, Maryland, and Pennsylvania to mark the reason. I came up with a certain populist resentment towards those who avoided front line service or avoided service altogether and were around to scoop up the farms and timber of families whose men had died or were wounded in The War, but there was nothing unique about that anywhere in the rural South. The very worst thing that a man could do for his family's future well-being was serve in a combat unit in the Army of Northern Virginia where casualty rates commonly ran from thirty to fifty percent and in some units much higher. The men of the old families almost all served; many died and many more lived out their days with a maimed body or deeply scarred psyche. There were lots of families who had been independent landowners for a century or more, some much more, in 1860 who were tenants, sharecroppers, or wage laborers by 1880.
I still keep my old ties though there aren't many family members or old friends around any more except for things like family or class reunions. Of the 128 people in my graduating class only perhaps a half dozen remain in the County, and they because of hereditary wealth and position. The World in which we started grade school in 1955 had pretty much ceased to exist by the time we graduated from high school in 1967 and almost all of us went on to seek our futures elsewhere.
No matter how we Southerners try to defend our old home places and our old life, the unvarnished truth is that the states that comprised the Confederate States of America were an economic, social, and physical basket case from 1865 until after WWII, in many places long after WWII. The iconic picture of poverty in America until Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King thrust the plight of Blacks to the fore was the rural Southern white kid with rickets or the stooped, wrinkled woman with no teeth who looked 80 but was only in her 30s. That was the reality of The South. Now there are glittering cities and icons like the Research Triangle, but the brutal fact is that those states still remain in the lowest eschelon of the states economically, some still at the very bottom. If you came up after, say, the '70s, you have no idea what came before you. Yes, The South is generally better off now and in some places is quite well off - yes, GC, I know about I-85, but the fact remains that the states that comprised the Confederacy were an abandoned, neglected, and inpoverished backwater for the better part of a century and still have a long, long way to go to achieve the same standards of social and cultural amenities and standard of living taken for granted in other parts of the Country. Your, and for that matter my, experience may differ, but the census and BLS data doesn't lie.
In Vino Veritas
That's not the whole story though
by Arkie Liberal
This is anecdotal, but I hope the anecdote reveals something--my family moved to rural Arkansas 7 years ago, and on balance, it's been good for us. Yes, there is still much catching up to do, and sometimes the lack of dynamism can be a bit infuriating. However, my family has also had opportunities here that simply would not have come our way had we stayed in the Northeast. Most visible is the way that my wife was a stay at home mom for some of those years, and yet we still can afford a decent house without any struggle. When my daughter started school, my wife found plenty of opportunities to get more involved in the community, and is now a pretty prominent member of the community, and loves living here.
It is precisely because lots of those amenities don't exist that provides those opportunities. The problem is too many people are content to sit around and say, "this town needs x" when they could be trying to figure out ways to provide that amenity.
of the country has standards problems since the 70s thru today.
just saying - from someone that has been here 24/7 365 as a sentient being since some left.
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"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
OK
by Jack Savage
I understand completely what you are describing, and my experience parallels yours almost exactly. We are just not agreeing on what came after you left, and I stayed.
"...but the census and BLS data doesn't lie."
Break it down by race, and you will see why the South scores poorly from a purely statistical basis overall. There is correlation, and causality. The same argument can be made using the same source data about, say, Detroit.
"...the states that comprised the Confederacy were an abandoned, neglected, and inpoverished backwater for the better part of a century..."
I will buy that to some degree, but most of it was burned to the ground and then abandoned as punishment, so there is a pretty good reason for that. As you pointed out, a lot of the menfolk were dead or disabled, so we had a little farther to go.
"...still have a long, long way to go to achieve the same standards of social and cultural amenities and standard of living taken for granted in other parts of the Country."
Amenities, maybe. In this one brief instance I hate to be a jerk, but not everyone thinks a Starbucks on every corner or an exhibition of Maplethorpe photographs is essential for living a normal, happy life. As far as standard of living goes, see comment #1.
I think you are unwittingly doing what you accuse me of - taking personal anectdotes and making the data fit. What you seem to be coming back to as a reason for the situation your county finds itself in (and I may be reading too much into this) ended 143 years ago, and worrying about it makes no more sense than blacks offering up slavery as an excuse for not thriving in America today.
Sure, there are parts of the South that are uninhabitable. The same goes for New Jersey, Vermont, Wyoming and a couple dozen other areas. The part that my family grew up in did not even know that there WAS a Great Depression, so self-sufficient were they. I could point to the pictures of men in bread lines in the cities during that time and make broad statements that cast the South in a very favorable light.
You left the South. As much as I hate to say it, you don't seem to like the South or Southerners. I don't like it, but I get it. I am saying that what you are offering up as descriptive of the South, and ONLY the South, is unrecognizable to someone who has lived, worked and traveled here every nearly every minute of my life. You've been gone a while, it seems, and don't seem to travel much outside your home area when you come back. We're doing a little better than you think, I believe, in all categories - even in rural areas.
All the best.
OK
by Jack Savage
I understand completely what you are describing, and my experience parallels yours almost exactly. We are just not agreeing on what came after you left, and I stayed.
"...but the census and BLS data doesn't lie."
Break it down by race, and you will see why the South scores poorly from a purely statistical basis overall. There is correlation, and causality. The same argument can be made using the same source data about, say, Detroit.
"...the states that comprised the Confederacy were an abandoned, neglected, and inpoverished backwater for the better part of a century..."
I will buy that to some degree, but most of it was burned to the ground and then abandoned as punishment, so there is a pretty good reason for that. As you pointed out, a lot of the menfolk were dead or disabled, so we had a little farther to go.
"...still have a long, long way to go to achieve the same standards of social and cultural amenities and standard of living taken for granted in other parts of the Country."
Amenities, maybe. In this one brief instance I hate to be a jerk, but not everyone thinks a Starbucks on every corner or an exhibition of Maplethorpe photographs is essential for living a normal, happy life. As far as standard of living goes, see comment #1.
I think you are unwittingly doing what you accuse me of - taking personal anectdotes and making the data fit. What you seem to be coming back to as a reason for the situation your county finds itself in (and I may be reading too much into this) ended 143 years ago, and worrying about it makes no more sense than blacks offering up slavery as an excuse for not thriving in America today.
Sure, there are parts of the South that are uninhabitable. The same goes for New Jersey, Vermont, Wyoming and a couple dozen other areas. The part that my family grew up in did not even know that there WAS a Great Depression, so self-sufficient were they. I could point to the pictures of men in bread lines in the cities during that time and make broad statements that cast the South in a very favorable light.
You left the South. As much as I hate to say it, you don't seem to like the South or Southerners. I don't like it, but I get it. I am saying that what you are offering up as descriptive of the South, and ONLY the South, is unrecognizable to someone who has lived, worked and traveled here every nearly every minute of my life. You've been gone a while, it seems, and don't seem to travel much outside your home area when you come back. We're doing a little better than you think, I believe, in all categories - even in rural areas.
All the best.
The fact that you can break it down by race
by Achance
merely underscores the problem. As I discussed in the original piece, New Deal Era labor and agriculture policies and the economic impact of WWII moved much, most in some places, of the White agricultural labor and White subsistence farmers either out of the rural areas altogether or into wage labor. This reduction in the labor surplus allowed wages to rise among Whites. The Civil Rights Movement thrust Blacks into competition with the White labor force and once again created a labor surplus in The South. Rather than hoeing cotton and cropping tobacco, their historical employment, work done by machines if at all anymore, that surplus labor force seethes in the projects and the cities where they make ever greater social welfare demands and elect ever more radical Democrats to office. I don't know if there isn't enough work, if it's work they "won't do," or if welfare is more lucrative than the work available. From hearing Erick's story of employers lamenting having to pay the minimum wage in Macon, GA, I suspect it is the latter. Frankly, I can't imagine what kind of employer is troubled economically by paying the federal minimum wage, itself a pittance, and my suspicion is that the problem isn't that they can't pay it, it is just that they know that they could pay less if they were allowed to or were willing to cheat. And, yes, I'm well aware that this is the case with every "doughnut" city in the Country and not just a Southern phenomenon.
No, I don't dislike The South, if nothing else there are too many "mystic chords of memory, to borrow Lincoln's phrase, for me there, nor do I dislike the general run of Southerners; they're warm, open, even inviting people even to someone who has become "almost a Yankee." I do dislike the economic and political elites in The South, both Black and White, who seem to see all economic endeavor as a zero sum game in which anything that benefits one person or group is thought to be to the detriment of any other person or group. And I dislike the general callousness towards labor that is simply ingrained in the owning and employing classes due to the long history of labor surplus and an oppressed, docile workforce.
In Vino Veritas
to labor that blacks (and whites) have been migrating to Dixie for more than 25 years.
ps
Not all states have oil surpluses...
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
No, they're not;
by Achance
they generally see labor as simply a commodity that they have to pay the going price for and follow the law and union contracts where applicable in the way they deal with them. In my tenure with the State here, I was generally regarded as a heartless b*****d who was willing to pay just enough to keep the workforce sullen but not mutinous. That said, we didn't go around firing people because they had the audacity to file a meritorious Workers' Comp claim, or to keep them from vesting their retirement, or because they signed a union card, all things that seem to be a necessary part of the management toolkit in much of The South.
And much of that migration was from the death of the smokestack industries, which was as much a product of US tax and trade policy as anything else. It ain't like the same thing hasn't happened in The South; remember when there used to be textile plants in The South? Even cheap, docile Southern labor was too expensive for those avaricious, polluting b******s. And on that front, we don't let plants pour raw aniline dye waste into a stream and kill every living thing within many yards of its banks or pour chrome plating waste into the ground water because the company is too cheap to properly dispose of it. Both of those happened in my home town, the latter one even went to the trouble to build the proper holding tanks and get them inspected, then after the inspector left, he put in a diverter valve so he could dump it into a sump where it could leach into the ground water. The USEPA caught that one, state and local officials did nothing though they new about it. I can go on, but this is becoming tiresome and will ultimately generate unnecessary hard feelings.
In Vino Veritas
hence the migration to the SOUTH - nt
by gamecock
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
Thank you for your reply
by Jack Savage
You are making arguments that would be worthy of the best populist Democrat, but I have no doubt that you really feel that way. Just a few points:
- My point about the racial breakdown of the statistics you cite is merely that when you have more African Americans in any area, no matter where, the area will be, statistically speaking, poorer and less educated. The "why" and "what to do" is another argument entirely, but judging the overall economic health of any area without recognizing this glosses over an important point. As an example, RTP is located squarely in Durham, NC. By any statistical measure, Durham is a pretty bad place to live. Yet those who live here know it is thriving.
- At the current rate of employment, I am hard pressed to buy an argument of a "surplus labor force" , particularly in the South, even among African Americans / poor whites. The answer to this statement "I don't know if there isn't enough work, if it's work they "won't do," or if welfare is more lucrative than the work available" is "B and C", with the reason for "C" being welfare, Section 8 housing, SSDI, etc etc etc are far easier than working an eight-hour day. That unwillingness to work is why hispanics have gained such a foothold here, and are managing to send tens of billions of dollars back home. There is PLENTY of work.
- No employer that I speak with pays less than double minimum wage. They are happy to hire, and pay well, anyone who will show up sober for six hours a day, three days or more in a row. The "oppressed, docile workforce" does not fly here.
I could go on, but I won't. Your experiences have been too different from mine to find any common ground on this, and what you are saying, in my view, just simply is not true any more, and I don't have to look far to see that.
I will end on this point -
When you have a country that people are willing to risk their lives to get into, that country is doing something right, regardless of what the detractors say. And when you have a particular section of that country that people are swarming to, that particular section is also doing something right. People vote economically with their feet, and the voters are coming here.
You cannot judge the economic health
by Achance
of a region, or its social and political health, without recognizing the fact of race. You said it, I didn't; I've been trying to be coy about this. You can't say that The South is economically healthy, meaning the White South, when, depending on the state, anywhere from a quarter to a half of its population is definitively not economically, socially, or politically healthy. There; it's said. Race and class trump everything else in The South just as much today as fifty or a hundred years ago. The overall standard of living is much higher, but by and large Whites have that higher standard of living on the economy and the majority of Blacks have a higher standard of living on government programs. Unfortunately, the culture is such that those who are not participating in the economy and workforce are so ill-educated and socially dysfunctional that they could not participate even if they were willing. Somebody else can solve those problems; I can't tell you how much I admire Erick's willingness to take an elected position in Macon, GA - you're a better man than I, Erick.
In Atlanta long ago I tired of race being the overarching factor in my life, of always being careful what neighborhood I was in and what exit I took. I would much rather have made the two block walk from my shop to my bank in downtown ATL without my pants on than without my pistol; I'd have had some chance of making it alive with no pants but no chance with no pistol.
You and GC are right; the White South is living well and people move to be there. The problem is that you still have a wolf by the ears.
And BTW, you aren't going to get my goat by calling me a populist Democrat; I am one. A very old school sort from back before the Democrats became the party of the Castrati and wanted to tell everyone how to live. I'm no Main Street, old time Republican from some burg in Ohio who believes in free trade right up until he gets a competitor and free speech right up until somebody says something about him. If you want to examine how the R majority got lost, look at that guy. I'm a libertarian - leaning on social issues ideological conservative, the Burkean sort, who is willing to fly the R as a flag of convenience, no more.
In Vino Veritas
I understand this, also
by Jack Savage
First, I wasn't trying to get your goat by calling you a populist Democrat. I recognized it from my grandparents and the era of Harry Flood Byrd in Virginia. As gas prices climb with not a shred of leadership from this administration, I find myself having some of those same urges nowadays.
Next, race and class trump everything everywhere. Period. In the South we have had to deal with "the wolf" because there are actually people of color living here. Vermont can cling to its self-constructed image of perfect racial tolerance while ignoring the fact that the black population is a whopping 1/2% of the total population. Again, my point is that the South holds no corner on the market for any of the things that are unspoken in our culture, either race or class.
To put a finer point on things, my assertion (and maybe gamecock's as well) is that conditions in the South LEND themselves better to prosperity than any other region in the country, and if one is not participating is is their own fault. I just see progress, vitality and opportunity everywhere, and for everyone. That's all that can be done, that is economic health (in my view), and the rest is up to the individual.
This is an important point. I believe the South has worked its way through racial things to the point that flashpoints are socio-economic in nature, and not racial. I believe we have progressed, because we HAD to, to a post-racist South. Like I said before, we actually live with each other, and try to get along, and buy things from each other, and go to each other's kids birthday parties. This is a far, far, far cry from my boss flipping out because I let a black co-worker ride in the cab of the truck with him in the A/C while I rode in the back because he was much older.
There will be a certain segment of the population, white and black, who will not participate in opportunity. The lower classes, at least for the time being, remain mostly black, so it would seem pretty convenient that I classify things as "socio-economic" instead of racial. This is also the reason that statistics do, and will for some time in the future, look bleak for certain areas of the South. But I am finding that more and more of my black acquaintances are rejecting the calls of self-appointed black leaders, and opting for a life of opportunity and prosperity. More and more of my white friends are moving up from being laborers to owners. And more people of ALL races are tiring of the "poor me" attitudes that I admit were fairly widespread fifty years ago.
Things are not perfect. There are still places here that I do not travel without being armed - I live in Durham, after all. But it is not bleak, it is not dismal and the South is, and will be, my home forever.
You deserve the last word, so I will defer, hang up and listen to the response.
to the SOUTH!!
amen Jack, and savagely so!!
55555
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
As a South Carolinian myself
by ZootSuit
I would not say that the South has worked out its race problems. We are just more honest in acknowledging that they are there.
Hey, let's burn the "stars and bars" and then we'll talk.
*****
Unrepentant Black nationalist, Unapologetic Black conservative!
The last word(s):
by Achance
This didn't start out to go here, but somehow it inevitably does. I had a striking and illustrative experience a few years ago during a visit "home;" yes, it is still home even though I've been gone 40 years. No matter what I did or where I went - and I've done some things and been some places, I knew I could walk in the door at Route 2, Box 95 and, until they passed a few years ago, be more or less welcome and always unconditionally loved.
I visited my attorney there, an old friend and childhood playmate. We even played in a band together in our high school and early college days; if we had a dollar for every time we'd played "Double Shot" and "Midnight Hour," neither of us would ever work again. The headline in the local weekly was about how pleased and proud the County government was that the unemployment rate in the County had dropped to only 11%. My old friend is a County Commissioner. After he and I took care of a little business, he invited me to see his new project. We piled into his Navigator and drove out to see the subdivision adjoining the golf course that he and his partners were building. The contractor was from out of state and the labor was all Hispanic. I asked him how he, an elected official, could get away with that. His reply was, "They don't care, they get their welfare checks."
One of my cousins owns a city limit bar, you know what I mean; in town you can only drink at the Country Club. I retired to my cousin's bar that evening as the "boys" were quitting work for the day. There ensued a lively conversation about an 11% unemployment rate in the County. Even though I've been away for a long time, I'm still pretty well known and respected - or hated, depending on your stripe - and like many men of my heritage, I do have the habit of command; nobody has to ask who's in charge if I'm in the room. I allowed as how where I'm from, if the unemployment rate were 11%, there'd be County Commissioners hanging from the light poles. All I'd have had to do was say, "Let's load boys," and there would have been County Commissioners hanging from light poles.
No doubt, at the same time that conversation was taking place, there were a bunch of fat a**ed lawyers, politicians, and big land owners sitting, talking, and sipping over at the Country Club - I'm not that classist, I'm a member too. No doubt, they were talking about keeping the taxes low on their timberland; Hell it just pays for the public schools and the n*****s don't want to go to school anyway. And bringing in some new business or industry would just cause more traffic and bring in the wrong sorts. I've heard, been a part of, all those conversations. I was talking to my banker about possibly building an apartment building on some land I have and he asked, "Are you going to rent to "blacks?" (Like not doing so is a legal option.) I said I'd rent to anybody who could pay the rent. He replied, "Well, if you rent to one "black," you'd better be able to rent the whole thing to "blacks" because no white people will live there." After we quit farming, my dad lived out his days as a small town merchant. He taught me the fundamental lesson of race relations: He said, "Son, it don't matter what color the hand is, the money's green." Yet, so many in leadership positions are willing to forego opportunity for fear that someone, actually some race, will benefit from that opportunity.
Unlike many of you, I am perfectly willing to use government to accomplish "needful things." We can argue about what is needful, of course, but if fifty percent plus one decides something is needful, it's damn well needful. You know, it's that consent of the governed thing, limited only by the Constitution. I'd cheerfully tax those G**D***ed pine trees until the owners screamed for Mercy if that's what it took to get that 11% out of the projects and into a job.
I'm planning to do a little development on some of my property. I know full well that I'm going to be opposed by the powers that be because doing so will upset the existing order of things. So, to get the zoning and permitting, and if I did it locally even the financing, I'm going to have to either kill or bribe every one of those fat, self-satisfied and self-serving SOBs. Killing them would be better, but I can afford to bribe them and that's cheaper than the lawyer to get me out of the murder rap. That's what I like about The South.
All that said, I grew up with ghosts in the closet. I know the Dutchman who joined the British Army in the French and Indian War to gain citizenship and gave his life for the privilege better than I know my neighbor. I know the Captain in the Virginia Militia that used his Revolutionary service to get the land in the Creek Cession lottery. I know the teacher who tried every means at his disposal to avoid service in the Provisional Army of the Confederate States, but when he had to served in Colonel McLeod's Regiment, General Wright's Brigade, General Anderson's Division, General Hill's Corps of General Lee's Army and died at The Crater, leaving a wife and two young children. I know the slave of that same teacher who stayed with the family long after The War until the day my g/grandmother died, when he left never to be seen or heard from again. I know the yeoman farmer who left hearth and home to serve in the same brigade as the teacher above but a different regiment and who took a .69 caliber ball in his left shoulder on 2 July 63 on Cemetery Ridge, walked back to Richmond, taking time to fight the battle at Mannassas Gap, to be admitted to Chimborazzo Hospital on 16 July 63. He got 30 days leave to heal his wound and came home to find that his wife had died in his absence. After The War he remarried, from whence cometh I on my mother's side. I know the men who cut the longleaf pine and floated it down the Ogheechee or the Ohoopee and the Altamaha and who built the railroads, sawmills, and turpentine stills in the timber boom. My roots run deep.
Sydney Lanier's "hills of Habersham, "valleys of Hall," "marshes of Glynn," and clattering brooks feeding the Chattahoochee resonate in my soul; I still know what red clay between my toes feels like and revel in the overpowering sensations of a warm, perfumed night with the fireflies dancing. But I'm afraid that if I lived there, I'd cause way too much trouble.
In Vino Veritas
You know, achance, there are literary energies building
by streetwise
up in your psyche that clearly need an outlet. Find one. You'll feel better, and the world will benefit. And as there is an enormous interest in Southern culture, your wallet may not do too badly, either.
However, leave the Southern gothic bodice-rippers to Gamecock- that's his territory! :>)
And don't forget to have lots of nourishing chicken soup. As everyone from New York can tell you (we are all part Jewish regardless of actual ancestry), it cures everything.
I have two in the works, actually.
by Achance
One, almost written, is a straight history of the 48th Regiment of Georgia Volunteer Infantry, in which most of my ancestors served. The working title is "Ashes of My Fathers," and I hope to be ready to shop it for a publisher this fall or maybe winter. The other, just outlined so far, has a working title of "Kiss My Children," and is "faction" based on my gg/grandfather and built around his letters home. The title comes from the way he always closed his letters to his wife. In it I am trying to peek into the politics and social pressures of the CW era. He was a fairly well off farmer and teacher who didn't support secession and who didn't want to serve in the Provisional Army. He tried every political ploy he could to try to stay in Georgia service, but when he ran out of options "volunteered" in the 4 Mar 62 Georgia muster. Once in the ranks, he used his education to get himself detailed out of combat service as much as he could; I can only find him in the ranks during the Seven Days and at Chancellorsville. When the CS was literally robbing the cradle and the grave for troops in the winter of '64, he had a letter discussion with my gg/grandmother about buying a substitute, which he could afford. I don't have her letters, letters from home to a soldier are extraordinarily rare, but it was clear that she was adamantly opposed as a matter of honor and social duty to his choosing not to serve. He went on to serve in the ranks through the Overland Campaign until he was KIA at The Crater. I'll end it with something based on my research and my recollection of my g/grandmother's stories of what it was like from the fall of '64 after Sherman's troops looted the place, all, save one, of the slaves ran away, and they faced destitution. They did in fact lose the place and there's an interesting story in there that I can't quite ferret out. His attorney brother was the executor of the estate and even after the war the rest of that side of the family seems to have been fairly well fixed, so there's some mystery in how she wound up on the "Indigent Soldiers' Widows and Orphans Relief" list by '67. Of course, as is often the case in the rural areas, the Courthouse burned a couple of times and I can't find the old deeds and legal records to see just how it went down, so I'm just going to make it up as authoritatively as I can. That one has a ways to go, but I'm semi-retired now so if I can stay off here, away from my boat - gas prices help that, and keep the honey-do list to a reasonable length, I should be able to get it done pretty smartly.
As to our shared Jewish heritage, you should give "The Jewish Confederates" a read. There was a strong Jewish presence in the antebellum South that remained until fairly recent times. In 1860, Charleston in fact had the second largest synagogue in the Nation. Judah Benjamin, originally a South Carolinian, was the first declared Jew to be elected to the US Senate - from Louisiana. He went on to be the first Jewish cabinet officer, serving as Secretary of War and Secretary of State, albeit for the Confederate States. He fled Richmond with Davis and the others but took his leave of them in Georgia. He made his way on foot through Georgia and Florida and managed to get to The Bahamas from whence he went to England. He went on to practice law in England and wrote a book on contracts, I believe, that served as the standard hornbook in England for many years. He moved to France in his later years and lies in Paris. Many in the US believed him to have been implicated in Lincoln's assassination and there were frequent calls for his extradition, but none ever came to anything. Nonetheless, he lived out his days without ever returning to American soil. Fascinating man!
In Vino Veritas
Man
by Jack Savage
I took my children to The Crater last month, where the tunnel the miners from PA dug under the Confederate line exists today, as well as the crater itself. If you haven't been there, I'll pick you up at the Richmond airport and drive you there when you can make the trip.
I'll also buy a copy of the book - signed, of course - and shill for you in VA and NC when the time comes. DO IT, man, DO IT!
I was just there last summer;
by Achance
nothing like stomping around battlefields in the 90-odd degree heat when you're from 50-60 degree Alaska! I've been to all the Army of Northern Virginia battlefields except Sharsburg, Harper's Ferry, and Manassas but I'll get them in in the next couple of years. I was at Petersburg looking for my gg/grandfather's grave. Family legend is that some of the relatives went to Petersburg sometime in the '30s or '40s and "found" his grave. I simply can't substantiate that claim. I've been through all the recorded burial rosters for the cemeteries in Richmond and Petersburg, including the Blanford Church cemetery, and he just isn't there. So, I can only conclude that he is in one of the mass graves, probably at Blanford since it is closest to the battle. Of course, that may have been what the relatives discovered when they "found" his grave as well.
He was Sgt. Joseph L. Sherrod, Co. H, 48th Georgia. I have a lot of his letters and the letter from his lieutenant to his wife, Sarah Jane, telling her of his death. It is amazingly cold and matter of fact and is mostly about what they did with his stuff; sold his uniforms and kit to the "boys," and sent her the money, packed up his money, testament, and bedroll and gave it to a neighbor who was going home on leave and who returned it to the family. I have the testament and we believe we still have the quilt that he used as his bedroll amongst the old family quilts, but we don't know which one it is.
I'll get on it this summer and fall, probably more fall than summer if the weather and fishing is good. It's beautiful here today - about time - and I'd be out today but I have a class tonight; I'm trying to upgrade my Inland Captain's license to Ocean, so I have to know all this arcane celestial navigation that I'll never use since it is all done by GPS and computers these days, even on small boats.
And when it's done, the signed copy is yours.
In Vino Veritas
I have seen many statistics and from what I recall, Blacks in the south still living in poverty is only 22%, that is high, but not anywhere near half. Furthermore, Black median income is only about $9000 a year less than whites.
Black poverty is higher in the North as a percentage, although less in absolute numbers because of fewer black citizens.
Black home ownership is not significantly behind whites now.
When you normalize the statistics for double income families, most of the differences between whites and blacks disappears.
You fail to acknowledge the progress that has been made.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
Actually the normalizations are
by ZootSuit
Actually, the normalizations (not the plural) education and family structure. Even then not every racial disparity goes away but most, the vast majority, do.
Great conversation all. Heading for a flight but I will hopefully be able to participate late.
*****
Unrepentant Black nationalist, Unapologetic Black conservative!
I have two points
by daithi
I lived in the South as a kid and later moved to California when my parents divorced, and I went back to NC to visit a fair amount. I've never had anything but fond memories of the South (think light'n bugs and Andy Griffith). The Research Triangle also shows that the South had plenty of opportunities for those willing to seek those opportunities. One of my cousins went to the University of Illinois when he was 16 and has been a professor at UNC for decades now. I don't think many people in my family had the pessimistic view of the South that I take away from reading Achance's diary.
Secondly, I spent most of my teenage years living in California with my Mother's side of the family, which was your typical Catholic, Irish-American, and Democrat family. My family in California had a fairly strong pride in being Irish-American, and I they had a distinct Irish-American culture. However, they knew very little about Ireland and the culture of Irish-Americans is completely different from the culture of the Irish, but there is a "culture" nevertheless. I tend to believe that there is likewise a "black culture" in the United States as well. It is not just about race. It is a culture built on the shared values and history of a community.
______________________________
"The truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it."
-Ayn Rand
while probably not 100% correct as most of our memories are, are far less correct now.
The South has changed a lot, As for a large Black underclass. Yes, that exists in some cities, but the largest such groups are undoubtedly in New York, L.A. and Detroit.
I do agree with your characterization of how immigration has been used to keep wages low. Still is, but it's also a political tool. The Democrats can keep a firm hand on both Blacks and Latino's by keeping them both poor, ignorant, and hostile to each other.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
How much is the South changing?
by FrankAtl
My 93-year old dad(who has spoken the N-word approximately 1 million times) and my 72-year old mom(who has NEVER voted Democrat) both plan to vote for Obama.
My old folks say that McCain is too old.
voted Democrat EVER is going to vote for a leftist piece of crap because McCain is old....that is the entirety of the change? I have to say I find that quite a stretch...but thanks for sharing...you of course will excuse me if I find the whole posting a little thin.
Freedom of Religion NOT Freedom from Religion
Don't worry, I doubt they are representative
by FrankAtl
in their thinking regarding McCain's age.
I don't share Mom and Dad's view of McCain or their enthusiasm for Obama. But I am glad to see that they still want to participate in this crazy, crazy process.
I understand what he is saying
by Jack Savage
Are they right? NO. Is it an example of change in the South? Oh yes - absolutely.
Slowly, slowly, slowly.
agreed - nt
by gamecock
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority.
I really appreciate your insight.