Redstate

When I was undergrad I saw drugs literally everywhere and not just pot. Because it was a private university nobody caught by the campus security ever got prosecuted other than a few selected individuals who did deal with large amounts of cocaine.

"Productive Members of Society but now are going to be entered into The System as Felons" Well they will certainly make good business men what with the operation they had going....but maybe not good psychic's because they obviously didn't see this coming...

Let's see a "ring" with drugs and guns...but poor little college students how dare "the man" arrest you for breaking the law...it's cool birdmojo you got away with it why not heartbleed for everyone else...it's only the law.

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

If the law is unjust, it is unjust to enforce it.

Moreover, the enforcement of the law will result in a number of college students who would make, yes, good businessmen in the future will now be, at best, disenfranchised from voting, from gun ownership, and from any number of things and, at worst, become folks who become a burden on the state rather than folks who pay taxes in their day jobs.

Prohibition was wrong even though it was the law.

This is wrong too.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

hell why have laws at all? it is a "free country"...do whatever feels good..right? it's just pot man...it isn't screwing anybody up...right? it's not like children are doing it and it's not like drug dealers are selling it to children...right?...oh that's right they are...but that's ok because they are going to be great business people one day...that makes it all better.

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

Immigration Law *IS* totally messed up. What's the #1 thing that America benefits from when it comes to Immigration? Immigrants from First World Countries who are college educated.

Well, my wife is from a First World Country (that is not the US) and is college educated and we tried to navigate the immigration waters in 1998 (the fiancee visa thing) and, lemme tell ya, it was a *HUGE* pain in the (redacted). We were two college educated kids, English speakers, fairly intelligent (if I may brag), and we still felt like we needed to get help from my Congressman (Joel Hefley) to navigate the process.

We were in love and wanted to do it right (first world kinda people, you see... real big on "rule of law") so we did... but I can easily see how someone who merely wants a job (as opposed to a spouse) might say "this is too much hassle".

Compare to a country where one of the catchphrases is "Don't Drink The Water". A Third World country where "Rule of Law" is something that the most corrupt politicians say before they rig the votes. Would paperwork keep you from jumping a fence?

All that to say: Our immigration law is keeping out First World kinda immigrants and doing nothing to keep out Third World kinda immigrants. The choice is not between "Tighten up the laws!" and "LIVE IN ANARCHY!!!!" but between "First World Immigrants and Third World Immigrants showing up" and "Only Third World Immigrants showing up".

I would prefer more First World immigrants showing up, myself.

As for your "it's not like children are doing it and it's not like drug dealers are selling it to children...right?...", I will once again analogize to Prohibition.

How much of a problem do we have with liquor stores selling liquor to children?

Legalization of drugs will have a similar effect. The black market sells to anyone with a $20 in his/her hand. If you have $20 and you don't have an ID... how are you going to get a bottle of something from a liquor store? You need someone to make a straw purchase and that is a *LOT* harder (believe me! It was tough in the 90's and I've heard it's a *LOT* tougher now).

So all that to say: An unjust law will result in unintended consequences. Going out of your way to force the unjust law and enforce it harder and harder and harder will result in even more unintended consequences. And yelling that the world ought to be different than it is may feel good... but it won't change the way the world actually is.

I point, once again, to Prohibition.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

Something I've never understood about American immigration policy... unskilled farm workers from Guatemala are more or less welcomed freely, while professionals from England, Germany, Japan, or India have to wait for years on end to get into this country. Might just be my own perspective talking again, but I'd say that somebody with fantastic earning potential and desire to be productive in America should go to the front of the line, not the back...

"No matter how much lipstick you put on the taxation pig, it's still a pig... and it's currently snout-down in your wallet." - Michael Fisk

That's the problem. Most First World countries have a particular demographic (but, let's face it, they're fairly diverse). Most Third World countries are much less diverse and have a whole lot of a (different) particular demographic.

And when you say "Dude, we want folks from First World countries!!!", it sounds a lot like someone saying "Whites (or Japanese) Only!"

And that is something that is worth going out of your way to avoid.

So you open doors to everybody... but you have more people coming in from Third World countries than from First World countries (because, let's face it, First World countries kick butt and Third World countries don't).

And if you want to cut down on "immigration", you close the doors a little bit... and, of course, that cuts down primarily on the First World immigrants and the most law abiding of the Third World ones... which leaves only the most desperate of the Third World ones.

So, of course, the response to that is to shut the doors a little more... which gets rid of the rest of the First World immigrants and the next most law abiding of the Third World ones and only the most desperate of the most desperate of the Third World ones are doing whatever they can to get here.

I'm just saying... do you really think that closing the door even more will give you the outcome you want this time?

Really?

Really really?

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

I had two friends, very well educated people from Nigeria (hint: not white) they had to go back after their visa's expired even thought they were both gainfully employed.

They are currently waiting for two years to be processed as legal immigrants and will probably have a lot more to go.

Meanwhile, my neighbor, a hard working Mexican named Ceasar, came over illegally, and operates an illegal lawn service ( I say illegal because he is not registered as a business and pays no taxes, he also does not have a valid drivers licence or insurance). And he is waiting for McCain to get elected so he can get amnesty.

Now, can you tell me how this is either (1) good for the country, or (2) fair?

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

Make it easier for Caesar *AND* your friends to become immigrants.

How is it good for the country? Well, I imagine, there are a number of your fellow citizens who have nicer lawns than they would have otherwise (and for cheaper than they'd otherwise pay and I'm sure that money is either spent or goes into savings or something)... and, for the record, I don't think that there is a possible tightening of the laws (and by that I mean laws that would actually both be enforced and hold up in the courts) that would keep Caesar (or someone very similar to him) out of the country.

So, for me, it seems that the best way to deal with this is to open up immigration law. Caesar wants to live here and he wants to work. Good for him! Let him! Your friends want to live here and they want to work! Huzzah! Let them!

That's my solution to the problem.

Of course, it'll never pass.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

the cost when Caesar's wife goes to the emergency room and cannot pay for anything? or when he hits you with his uninsured vehicle? or when your own kid has to attend a classroom with fifty students most of who cannot speak English very well, so your kid learns nothing? Or how about When he helps his cousin Orlando come over, but Orlando is not a good guy so he commits a crime then flees to Mexico?

So the "more the merrier is it", cheap lawns are what it's all about right? well, in that case why are we fooling around with Mexicans? hell, they aren't all that cheap, we could import millions of dirt poor people from Zimbabwe, Burma, Zaire, Haiti, and Paraguay. How many you think we need? thirty million? 50 million? hell why not half a billion, then we would really be wealthy!

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

Do you think that immigration law is tighter or looser than it was in, say, 1990?

A follow-up question:

Do you think that tightening it up even more will make things as good as it used to be back when the laws were looser?

Do you think that tightening up the laws against marijuana and/or cocaine will result in fewer drugs on the streets?

Do you think that tightening up the laws against handguns will result in fewer handguns in Washington DC?

Do you think that tightening up the laws against illegal immigrants will result in fewer illegal immigrants?

Do you think that "doing the same thing and expecting a different result" is a workable definition of insanity?

Why or why not?

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

drugs and other contraband are not the same as people. Immigrants, legal or otherwise do not follow exactly the same path as does commodities and ought not to be treated like fungible assets.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

Maybe you'll get a different outcome this time.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

And an executive that would enforce them.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

While I don't actually have a problem with anti-drug legislaion in theory, I definitely agree that an unjust law that is enforced, is unjustly enforced. I respect an executive who refuses to enforce an unjust law/ruling. I call that balance of power. Just stand by to get yanked from office if I disagree with you next election. Besides if your refusal is outrageous enough, the courts and the legislature will kick you out of office by super majorities.

I also agree that the current immigration system is retarded. I'd be a lot more gung ho to stop illegal immigration if I didn't think our system was waaaaaaay too beaucratic and arbitrary. I'd prefer a first come first serve system with possible exceptions for mass movements of refugees... or something. But anything is better than standing in a queue while people who fill a "more important" category keep passing you up in line. Not to mention the loooooong waits.

"Hey, I call 'em like I see 'em. I'm a whale biologist."

Where I fall to the wayside.

Do I agree that criminals shouldn't own guns? HECK YES!!! Criminals should not own guns!

But then I think about how this law would be enforced, who it would be enforced against, and how, to make it easy, they would just make it impossible to legally own a gun, and how, at the end of the day, we'd end up with Washington DC writ large.

So, at the end of the day, I support "must-issue concealed carry" policies. Not because, in principle, I enjoy the idea of everyone I meet carrying a gun... but because, in practice, I'd know that the only people carrying guns in the "Gun Control Paradise" would be the ones I would most want not carrying them. The folks I wouldn't care whether they were packing? They would be the ones not packing.

I do not support the repeal of drug prohibition because I want people to use drugs... but because, like with prohibition 1.0, the worst people are making the most money from it and selling to folks (even children) indiscriminately. If it were legal, it'd be like beer/wine.

Quality control, strict enforcement of who it gets sold to... all that stuff.

It's not because I think the world ought to be different, it's because I know it's not.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

I'm more worried about getting rid of the WoD than about whether it is unjust to enforce it. The law is still the law, even if it is a stupid one, and its not like they can plead ignorance. But, we do need to change it at least to some extent.

I hear you. When I was in undergrad (about 5 years ago) virtually everyone I knew tried or did some sort of drugs. I would never want the majority of those people arrested for doing something that's on par with alcohol in terms of danger to others.

We definitely need an overhaul of our drug laws. I remember the cops coming down to campus once because a campus security officer called them to report marijuana use (it was at my neighbors' at the dorm at the time). The two cops literally told the students not to get caught next time and left. It was NY and not so good part of it, so they probably thought they had much better things to do than to arrest college yuppies.

groups. Once Nixon moved to end deferments for grad students, all Hell broke lose when parents could no longer keep their baby boy in college with money. I'm more on the birdmojo side of this; we've criminalized way too much. In my state you can become a felon by repeat offenses of being a minor in possession of alcohol. If I'd had to live under the laws my kids did, my kids wouldn't exist because I'd still be in jail.

In Vino Veritas

College students smoke pot; highschool students drink and have sex; junior high kids blow things up with M80's. Then they grow up, and they stop smoking pot, drinking to the point of vomiting, having sex in cars, and blowing things up. They go to work in accounting firms, have their own families, and pay their mortgages on time.

I don't know why in the world people want to outlaw youthful recklessness and irresponsibility.

"I don't know why in the world people want to outlaw youthful recklessness and irresponsibility."

It could be because....

http://www.adolescent-substance-abuse.com/statistics-drug-abuse.html

or maybe it's because...

http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resources/reading/fact_sheets/drugsondcp.as...

which leads to...

http://womensissues.about.com/od/datingandsex/a/TeenAbortRates.htm

and than there is always...

http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/personal_injury/car/teen.html

all of the above are reasons to want to outlaw youthful recklessness and irresponsiblity...I'm just saying.

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

And now kids are required to wear bike helmets, playground equipment is made out of plastic (God, did I love metal jungle-gyms), adults have to wear seatbelts, transfat is illegal in New York, and I can't smoke in my favorite bar. I could link to all kinds of scary stories/picture to show how "dangerous" all those things are. People are going to do stupid things, and they are going to get hurt doing them. If the government is going to outlaw stupidly hurting oneself, it might as well try to regulate gravity.

For the records, of course even teens should be charge for DWI's. Endangering other people is quite another thing than endangering oneself. I think it's silly, though, to arrest teens/college students (or anyone else for that matter) for smoking pot, drinking, or having sex with their girlfriends.

themselves but other people...drunk driving...or pot driving if you like...pregnancy ending in abortion..hmmm...rehab's and destroyed lives ie: blight on society...not all of them are coming back from their drug use to become good members of society some of them will die and some of them will be in and out of rehab the rest of their lives and some will end up incarcerated for more than their drugs...because in the end they will steal....but hey it's just pot, right?

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

precisely because it poses such a high risk of hurting other people. The solution to drug addiction, though, is rehab, not jail. All drug use does not lead to drug addiction, just as not every mojito leads to alcoholism. Do you want to outlaw rum because alcoholism ruins some lives?

And, yes, teen pregnancy leads to abortions. Good luck outlawing teenagers having sex.

What ever happened to personal responsibility? Do we really need the government telling us right and wrong? When did people lose the ability to raise their own children?

thing all together....no one is outlawing sex for teenagers but drugs and alcohol do impair their ability to reason which is why they are illegal for teenagers...cause - effect...the law...don't like them elect someone who will change them...but until such time they must be obeyed....we do not get to pick and choose those "items" we like and discard those we don't.

I think Ron Paul is running for the Libertarian vote and I think he has your back on this issue...get him elected and perhaps the laws will change.

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

It's illegal to run red lights, but how many people support increasing the number of cameras at traffic lights? Likewise, speeding is illegal, and speed cameras would virtually eliminate it, but no one wants to go there.

There are lots of laws that we like to have on the books but that we like selectively enforced. Teenage drinking and college student pot-smoking fall precisely into this category. Sure we want them to be illegal, but mostly so that if the neighbor kids are getting to loud when mom and dad are out of town the cops can come break up the party. When we start using laws that were rarely enforced to treat college-aged pot-smokers like Columbian coke smugglers, then we've clearly gone off-track.

the local school board!

Or just a big fan?

Pot driving? Gateway drugs? Rehab?!? In the end they will steal?

You forgot the part where they freakout because there are worms crawling all over them and they mutilate themselves.

Seriously, you should try talking first-hand to some marijuana users, and not just the ones who can't get their lives on track so they use the weed as a scapegoat.

The biggest problems with marijuana stem (ha!) from the fact that it is illegal. The other problems are not unique to marijuana. Anyone who would steal to support their weed habit would also steal to support their nicotine addiction.

bird was right, is it an unjust law, if for no other reason than the penalties are not in line with the dangers to self or society.

Someone's got to punc

a question for you in the Man Cave...and don't worry about MrSyHastings; he's a hologram now.

"The biggest problems with marijuana stem (ha!) from the fact that it is illegal. The other problems are not unique to marijuana. Anyone who would steal to support their weed habit would also steal to support their nicotine addiction."

Nice one...and you hit on a good point...One of the main differences between MJ and other drugs is...

When you run out of MJ you go to sleep...

When you run out of Ciggies, Booze, Cocaine, Etc...people will spend the Gas money..They will spend the Baby's milk money...They will forego bills just to get more.

"40 million American households with sockpuppets are generally happier
than those people in households that don't have sockpuppets."

you are definitely askew because I pick up female teenagers from a rehab three times a week to take them to a meeting outside the rehab...so maybe you ought to go talk to some...I see what "weed" as the "gateway" does to these young men and women 3 times a week...so be self righteous and think you have the answers and think these kids are just the one's who can't get there lives on track...there are college students (medical)there...not to bright huh..and it always is "It just started with a couple of beers and some pot with my friends" they never know where that line is but they cross it and than my self righteous friend they end up in jails, institutions and last week a 21 year old died...it is real life and you can dismiss it for your fine Libertarian views....

Funny thing about those links..they are called FACTS and if FACTS scare you or someone else than that is just the FACTS.

So I suggest you go talk to some pot smokers that aren't just sitting around smoking it with you.

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

others....True Story;

others discussing this pot thing...

One week ago, I'm working at home, and I hear a tapping outside the office window...I go over to the window and see the neighbors kid (16 yoa) cooking a bowl on the deck..

I mull it over. I email a mutual friend of the mother, who I am close with. I left it up to the friend, and she told the mother. The mother called me the next day and couldn't thank me enough...she works long hours, and had no idea. She has been scared that this would happen, and at least now she has been able to talk with her child about it.

Question: what would you have done if you were me?

Our hood has rugrats running everywhere...suppose that kid gets in a car?...

" Got to love the Lord for making things like that."
Morally Compromised

drug den of libertarianism instead of a conservative site...

I will guess all of these same posters with weed don't appreciate the NSA wiretaps either...big brother and all.

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

of research that make the case of pro pot activists...so good is that data that they still can't convince the gen public it should be legal.

" Got to love the Lord for making things like that."
Morally Compromised

Most Medical Marijuana measures on state ballots pass, Jdub.

It's the Feds who stomp on the states after that.

And, when it comes to the issue of "States' Rights", may I suggest Gonzales.v.Raich? Be sure to check out who believes in the 10th (the dissent) and who doesn't (the opinion).

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

I just want to say that I dont do drugs but I live in the OC and drugs are everywhere.

Mrsyhasting was calling me a pothead because I used Med MJ as a ploy to expose him...one thing with young libs is they always know what 420 is...in fact I did a blog on 420.

Just because we are talking about it doesnt mean that this is a "drug den of libertarianism"

My take is that the Feds should keep their nose out of it...The states can handle it...The feds just make a mess of things.

"I will guess all of these same posters with weed don't appreciate the NSA wiretaps either...big brother and all."

Jaded your losin it...dont start with this..Love you

'pope of man church sits
in throne made of asbestos
no where else to go'

"It's the Haiku stupid"

Keep your eye on Askew ...sounds like he's yelling all the time...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354314,00.html

See because it's never just pot...they also busted them for E and they had 60K in cash and weapons...you had a full blown university DRUG GANG..period....but all the lovers of pot who know "someone" or are that "someone" who has such a wonderful life that they just "use" this wonderful drug that the mean old government won't them have keep smoking away and one day your prince "the government" will come too.....because whether you like it or not it is AGAINST THE LAW...

If life is so wonderful that you only use it recreationally why use it at all....I wake up each and every morning grateful to be alive and have a job and a wonderful family and I don't need to change my thinking with anything other than RedBull to kick start my heart :-) and the beauty of that is it's legal!

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

daughter almost went to UC San Diego ended up at UC Santa cruz

Its always been known around here that it was a party skrool..

criminal enterprise....and a young man had to die for them to be investigated...the article said the cops made 100+ buys...

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

funny...UCSD is suppose to be Best out of the UC schools

I used to spend time at Santa Cruz (city not the school). I remember 'Upper Crust Pizza'! Wonder if it's still there? Good stuff!

Beautiful campus in the middle of the forest..

Besides all of the alternative Footwear and Poly Sci majors..its cool

You talked to the mother, not to the cops.

Why?

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

At least the first time...

When I have a problem with a kid, I talk to the parents. Usually they handle the problem. Why should he get the kid involved in the legal system if the mother can deal with it?

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

Right? We agree that breaking the law is bad, right?

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

And hopefully the mother will convince him to cease breaking the law before it becomes more bad for him. From the reply below, I don't have much hope for the kid, but still he gave a chance to resolve the problem without using the courts...

Frankly I have mixed feelings on drug laws. I think they have allowed organized crime and gangs to prosper (much like prohibition did), but on the other hand...

I DO have family members who use pot and have let it REALLY screw up their lives. None have ever been arrested for it, but they can't seem to keep jobs, can't seem to pay bills, can't seem to do anything that a productive member of society would. Of course the same can be said for people who abuse legal substances like alcohol as well....

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

does get arrested. then you will see the true consequences of the war on drugs. My sister in law got hooked on prescription medicine. She could function well with them, but was a total wreck without them. When she could not get them legally she bought them from a nurse and got busted, just like Rush, since then she lost her job and her house, How the hell did that benefit society?

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

I'm a strong advocate of personal responsibility and facing consequences, but many conservatives (not pointing fingers at any one individual here) are unhappy with merely letting people suffer the natural consequences of their actions. They need to be "punished" for their mistakes so they really learn their lessons.

Maybe liberals bail people out a little more often than they ought, but it beats the hell out of taking some sort of sick glee in kicking someone when they're already down.

Please elaborate. What specifically do we do to kick someone when they are down. If you don't answer, I'll just assume you are a bomb thrower whose can't back anything up.
Tim Schieferecke

(before it stopped being a "gay disease"), etc.

I refer to the general attitude, among some but not all on the right, along the lines of "well if they didn't want to suffer they shouldn't have [fill in the blank]"

one's own actions. When I was an intake correction's officer and some drunk would complain about the so and so cop that "put me here", I always said "you put yourself here". If more folks were responsible for themselves, this country wouldn't be having the problems we have now. Sometimes, actually most times, the most compassionate thing you can do for a person is let them fall flat on their face and hit rock bottom. I'm curious what you mean about the war on drugs being an example of conservatives kicking you when you're down. Please elaborate.
Tim Schieferecke

personal responsibility yes, but don't pile on the unfortunate and weak among us. Don't make their lives worse.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

thread's too narrow here.
continued below

As I said, none of them are productive members of society now due to their drug habits.

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

it, I had the benefit of elders imparting great wisdom on me...without getting the police involved.

Mainly as respect thing for the mother and the child....but I lost it for the kid...See, the next day he knocked on my door...he stood in my doorway, and told me that if I had a problem with him, I should have and should in the future come to him first...................!

Well...let's just say it's too bad that kid doesn't have a father at home....See, I brought up the fact that little tikes are always running around the hood...didn't matter to him, he had an answer. I told him about the 5 freinds of mine who are dead now due to booze or drugs in the last 20years since H.S.
Didn't matter, he had an answer...he had an answer to everything that come up...

" Got to love the Lord for making things like that."
Morally Compromised

Is that everyone pretty much agrees that they are better off for not having become a felon for their youthful indiscretions.

Hey, most of us agree that the formerly indiscrete among us are better off for not having become felons.

I read this and say "well, we should get rid of those laws".

And I don't understand how others read it and say "THINK OF THE CHILDREN".

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

I don't mean that as a slam, but because of your work with young people you are too emotionally involved to view it in a clinical way.

There is a HUGE and I mean really huge amount of research that has been done on drugs and the things I come up with are, there is really no thing as a "gateway' drug, since the people who would take small chances will eventually go on to bigger chances, so if there is a gateway drug it is cigarettes since they are illegal to young people.

The lure of drugs will always be there when it is a method of youthful rebellion, when there is the presence of a "pusher", and when prohibition increase the value to organized crime.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

When I was in college, I drank hard liquor.

Why? Well, I wanted to get drunk and I didn't know when I'd be able to get someone to engage in a straw purchase of booze for me again. 5 bucks would buy a case of beer, a couple of bottles of Boone's Hill, or a giant bottle of Vodka.

The Vodka went farther than the rest of those.

Now that I am (ostenably) a grown-up, I never touch the hard stuff anymore. Ugh. Even the thought makes me cringe.

A couple glasses of wine are good enough... and only in controlled circumstances (back porch, know that I will not need to go anywhere, etc).

I imagine that a similar dynamic exists with drugs.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

None of them are in rehab. Most hold down well-paying professional jobs (that's why they have the money to spend on pot). None of them have committed any crimes recently, other than the drug laws.

You're way overgeneralizing from your limited sample. The plur of anecdote is not data.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

Even the Mexican ones?

Because we know, as you've explained to us, they are so prone to overuse of intoxicating substances...

"I will look for people in the cast of John Roberts, Samuel Alito, and my friend the late William Rehnquist – jurists of the highest caliber who know their own minds, and know the law, and know the difference." - John McCain

Quit beating it, already, and stop acting like a racist/liberal.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

Apologize for your "Mexicans are drunk drivers" schtick and I'll stop flogging the dead horse, as you put it.

Although I find it hysterical that you have the unmittigated gall to call me a racist.

"I will look for people in the cast of John Roberts, Samuel Alito, and my friend the late William Rehnquist – jurists of the highest caliber who know their own minds, and know the law, and know the difference." - John McCain

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Last I checked, racist and sexist comments are disallowed here on Redstate. If you think I have made any comments that are racist, report me already and shut your trap and let the admins deal with it. Otherwise, shut your trap and drop it.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

It isn't that smoking pot will lead inevitably to using other drugs per se, it is that pot is the easy way into a world where it is a simple step to the next and the next and the next drug or bad behavior. A pretty girl hooks up with a guy who has pot and is in that world. Some older or better off guy offers her cocaine; it's people she knows in a place she's already comfortable. A pretty girl can ALWAYS get cocaine, but sooner or later the trade is sex for cocaine. Quid pro quo sex for cocaine is a staple of that life. After a while, the guy is tired of her and won't give her coke, so it is a short step to dancing or hooking for the money, and that is a sleighride to Hell.

In Vino Veritas

Wouldn't that cut down on people trading sex for cocaine?

It would be for The Children, after all.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

but you know the reality as well as I do; it ain't like I never powdered some PYT's nose. The illegality of it makes it far more dangerous, and inviting for some, but the fact remains that once you step inside that world, your view of LOTS of things changes. I'd legalize, and tax the Hell out of, pot tomorrow. It is de facto legal here anyway, de jure legal under State law. You'd have to send the cops an invitation or do something else really stupid to get busted for pot. Consequently, other than the meth rednecks, we don't really have much of a drug problem, which isn't to say we don't have drugs.

In Vino Veritas

But I suspect that the drug issue is similar to the prohibition issue in the 20's/30's.

The bad guys dealt in whisky, vodka, and gin because you could get more people more drunk with less hard liquor for much more profit.

When repeal day hit, people went back to drinking beer and wine overwhelmingly.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

In Vino Veritas

For The Children.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

for the children

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

I've heard this sentiment expressed with speed limits as well; one sure way for an overly-low speed limit to get changed is for cops to enforce it vigorously, turning popular sentiment against it.

Problem is, a felony drug conviction is a lot more inconvenient than a traffic ticket.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

have absolutely no idea what this story is about. This was a *large* ring of drug dealers. One of the on-campus ringleaders was directly involved with the Mexican drug cartels. There were dozens of off campus dealers busted along with these students.

The college began the investigation after the overdose death of one of their students. The university was experiencing an extraordinarily high number of students admitted to the emergency room with overdoses. Another student died of overdose during the course of the investigation.

The dealers had cocaine, ecstasy, methamphetamine, hashish and pot and were selling it in wholesale quantities. What the DEA called "mind boggling quantities". And about $60,000 in cash and arms and ammo. This is *not* a handful of preppies sucking on a doob before a ball game.

This is a ring of drug dealers that had infiltrated a major American university.

Me? I'd hang them right there in the student union. And I'd let the mother of those two dead kids pull the lever that did the job.

All the morons on this thread who commented as if the authorities were busting guys smoking a joint need to learn to read before you comment and show your absolute ignorance.

I meant what I said and I said what I meant. An elephant's faithful 100 percent.

If you want to cut the huevos off of the Mexican Drug cartels, the best way to do this is to get rid of prohibition.

What destroyed the Organized Crime Gangs in Chicago from Prohibition wasn't increased vigilance on the part of the government... but, you know, getting rid of Prohibition.

(I know, I know. This time it's different. This time people want to sell drugs to The Children. This time we're dealing with really, really Organized Crime.)

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

I know you're pretty libertarian, and I'm not, but did you read the list of drugs?

They had cocaine, hashish, methamphetamines, ecstasy, and extremely high grade pot. You want this to be legalized?

I meant what I said and I said what I meant. An elephant's faithful 100 percent.

Did the organized crime spend more time on beer/wine or on vodka, whiskey, and gin?

Why do you think they spent more time on vodka, whiskey, and gin?

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

And I mean ignorant as in you don't know. I don't know either, as neither one of us was even alive within 40 years of prohibition.

You don't even know exactly what the mafia's major areas of operation were during that time period. You speculate hard liquor because of gangster movies, not because you were involved or reading the news at the time.

If your argument is that people won't use cocaine, meth, etc. if we legalize pot, say so and I will mock you. If you're not saying that, what's the point of your prohibition argument?

I meant what I said and I said what I meant. An elephant's faithful 100 percent.

The mob in Chicago moved vodka, whiskey, and gin primarily because you could make more money moving less product to get more people more drunk.

We are not in an epistomologically grey area like they're discussing in the evolution vs. ID threads.

This is something that history books actually talked about.

Have you heard the phrase "bathtub gin" before? Where does that term originate from? Do you really think that we can't know since we don't have first hand experience?

If that's your standard of proof, how do you know that they made a major drug bust yesterday?

Do you believe everything the media tells you?

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

all drugs legal....herion, meth, acid ...everything. You know...cause drinking beer, booze or having a fag is the same thing as roasting up a crack pipe.

Don't you get it?..if we make drugs legal, we can control the manufacture, sale and dist., heck even tax!! See, all the problems that drugs cause can be addressed....

" Got to love the Lord for making things like that."
Morally Compromised

What destroyed the Organized Crime Gangs in Chicago from Prohibition wasn't increased vigilance on the part of the government... but, you know, getting rid of Prohibition.

Organized crime is alive and well. Not only in Chicago, but NJ, NY, Boston, LA and quite a few other places as well. And they don't restrict themselves to drugs or alcohol. They include gambling, prostitution, human trafficking, abuse of public works projects, etc. in their fundraising toolbox. Legalize all that too?

I meant what I said and I said what I meant. An elephant's faithful 100 percent.

Let's look at these.

Gambling. Let's say I want to throw some cards with my buddies in a basement and gamble. Is it illegal for me to give $200 to my buddy? Is it illegal for me to play Uno with my buddy? Why is it illegal for me to play Uno with my buddy for a stake of $200?

Lemme guess: "Think about The Children."

Prostitution. Let's say that there's this chick who is really cool. Is it illegal for me and this chick to boink? Is it illegal for me to give this chick $200? Why is it illegal for me to give this chick $200 so we can boink? (I have no doubt that there is at least one amateur essayist out there who has a "Barter is totally cool, cash is totally not cool" essay they've been waiting to write... no time like the present.) Why should the government have the power to regulate this interaction?

Lemme guess: "Think about The Children."

Human trafficking. Well, without getting too much into it, the claims of human trafficking turned out to have been somewhat overblown. As I understand it, there was a specific number of visas given out specifically to the social workers and folks in law enforcement to give to victims of human trafficking so that they could be here legally, and tracked, and be part of the system rather than as part of a grey market. They did not find enough people to give all of these visas out to. I'm guessing the media overblew the story based on a handful of truly horrific cases that were not representative of a larger trend (and thank goodness for that).

As for "abuse of public works projects", I'm not sure I know how to deal with this one. "We need less corruption in government". And when someone asks "Why do we need less corruption in government", I will tell them to THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

1. Are you seriously comparing buddies gambling on UNO to mafia gambling rings? Get out of the basement. For the children.

2. Like I said, you're way more libertarian than me. I'm conservative and I don't believe in making drastic changes in societal mores without good reason. And "I don't think it's fair that I can't buy boink whenever I want it!" is not a good enough reason for me. And unlike Eliot Spitzer's opposition, I'm not engaging in "boink" for hire in secret.

3. Human trafficking. You probably know about this as much as you know about prohibition. Maybe even less as law enforcement hasn't been able to make any significant inroads into it.

4. What the heck is it with you and children? I never mentioned them. Do you have a tick?

I meant what I said and I said what I meant. An elephant's faithful 100 percent.

When the law makes gambling illegal, do you think that the law makes exceptions for buddies gambling?

As for boinking, you know that boinking happens all the time, right? I do not think that societal woes such as assault, robbery, and murder have been alleviated to the point where using police power to prevent people from boinking is a proper use of a limited number of resources.

I appreciate your assertions about human trafficking but this is one of those things where the numbers are very interesting. The government provided a number of visas to be given to women who had been human trafficked. This quota of visas was not met. I sincerely doubt that this was due to lack of trying on the part of the social workers whose employment is dependent, in part, on proving to the government that they are needed.

It makes much more sense to me that the stories revolving around human trafficking are sensationalized.

What the heck is it with me and children? Paternalism treats citizenry like children. This offends me.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

If you want to cut the huevos off of the Mexican Drug cartels, the best way to do this is to get rid of prohibition.

I cannot disagree any more. The best way to cut the huevos off the drug cartels is to make it really, really, really, unhandy and unhealthy to be caught dealing drugs. Me? I'd shoot them.

But as the more tender hearted members of my party don't have it in them to pull that one off, the nest best alternative is to cut off their huevos.

I meant what I said and I said what I meant. An elephant's faithful 100 percent.

Show me a case of concrete evidence that prosecuting more people for drugs is going to stop the flow of drugs. There is a demand for drugs, and as long as there is such a massive amount of money in it-moreso because it's illegal, people are going to risk everything for it. I'd legalize prostitution as well, to answer your other question about organized crime, and gambling already is legal. Incarcerating people for no violent drug offenses has done nothing but cost the taxpayers more and more money every year.

Someone's got to punch the hippies.

I'd re-legalize Internet gambling, myself. I don't think the federal government has a place making any of those illegal (thankfully the feds haven't stepped in and made prostitution federally illegal yet). Let the states handle it; if a few states want to experiment with making it all legal, it'll either work or it won't, and other states will either follow or not, without forcing the entire country to be all one way or the other. This is true federalism at work.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

I don't have time to do the research right now, because the rest of my day is going to be spent shampooing carpets. :(

However, I will address this post as best I can. First, common sense says that when there is sufficient discomfort in any action, the action will be reduced. People don't commonly rob banks anymore, even though that's where the money is, because the penalty is more severe than the possible gain.

I'm not a big Chairman Mao fan, but when he crushed China, there was a significant heroin problem. He made a decision to rid China of it and announced that he would execute heroin addicts. The heroin addiction problem cleared up. There's your anecdotal evidence.

Now that I have you all fired up about how I may be a communist sympathizer infiltrating RS, I will mention that this program does not match mine.

To reduce or eliminate our problems with drug use and abuse, we need to concentrate really hard on the dealers and suppliers of the drugs, making sure that the potential gain is insignificant in relation to the potential punishment.

I know it's not going to happen. I know they will always call it a non-violent crime. Even a victimless crime, like they say about prostitution, but they are wrong and the problem won't go away until we take it as the serious threat that it is.

I suppose that may happen after it gets legalized and we finish our ride in the handbasket. In the meantime, I support concealed carry laws.<