Redstate

screechings during the Clinton impeachment, he was their attack dog. I have run into him a few times, I coughed two sylabble synonym for rectum, but I should have told him off, just for my blood pressure :)

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Molon Labe!

you'll be driving your car.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

Harkin is a total waste of carbon-based life-form components.

Although I'm in favor of smaller government, I'm also in favor of letting government do what it does best. One of those things is to regulate the purity, efficacy, safety, and quality of foods and drugs. It should also be doing the same for food supplements and herbal potions and the like, but it doesn't. That would include "alternative" medicines, too.

Thanks to Harkin's work, the FDA is prohibited from exercising jurisdiction over herbal and homeopathic "medicines" and the multitude of food "supplements" that come in from China and elsewhere. The stuff that was in the imported Chinese dog food could just as easily be in the herbal concoctions they send here. No one checks them all, so no one really knows what is in them.

Thanks to Tom "I believe in magic and ethanol" Harkin. And to the voters in Iowa who keep re-electing him.

Democrats: Abandoning Allies, One Country at a Time.

Re: FDA

You are kidding right? There are fewer government agencies that exemplify just how inept government is. Most drugs that make it to market undergo such small changes from the beginning of testing that the rest of the testing was pretty much useless. That leads to massive amounts of waste (and increased prices at the Rx counter) when the drugs do get approved.

Without getting into that debate, the fact remains that there is NO assurance whatsoever that food "supplements" are pure, safe, or effective. That's why they don't actually claim to do anything, because if they did, they'd be subject to false advertising lawsuits and they'd also be claiming to be "real" medicine and therefore subject to FDA scrutiny.

They'd rather not do that.

Democrats: Abandoning Allies, One Country at a Time.

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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
--Aristotle

I, too, would stand across the street and watch him burn, and enjoy the spectacle.

Patience, young lady.
I am sure that given enough time he will get there.....

And thank you and family for your service to our country.

Regards

Harkin was the Democrat senator who, in September 2004, hurriedly called a press conference to read to assembled reporters those alleged Bush National Guard letters uncovered by "60 Minutes".

Less than one week later, those documents were exposed as forgeries.

Dan Rather retracted the story.
Tom Harkin never did.

None of the so called Republican Senators ever made an issue of both the insult to the President and the refusal to issue a retraction.

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Proud member of the Barry Goldwater wing of the party !

http://www.google.com/search?q=new+york+times+tom+harking+military+servi...

This is googling for the New York Times and Harkin's little Polemic.

It's been memory holed before anyone had a chance to know about it.

If you look for it Tom Harkin How Much Military service

http://www.google.com/search?q=tom+harkin+how+much+military+service&ie=u...

You get the DesMoines Register then Redstate.

Like I said its gone before anyone had a chance to know about it. Being a journalist these days means always flying cover for the Democrats, burying everything stupid they say and when you can't do that putting the best spin you can on it.

a direct quote form on of those lnked articles:

Correction Tuesday, Sept. 14, 2004
An article on Friday about the authenticity of memos that suggested President Bush had received favorable treatment in the National Guard referred imprecisely in some copies to the Vietnam War experience of Senator Tom Harkin, Democrat of Iowa, who contended that the president had lied about fulfilling his Guard duty. While Mr. Harkin was indeed a Navy flier in Vietnam, he did not fly combat missions; he flew damaged planes out of the country for repair.

Harkin had himself previously claimed to have had combat flying experience in Vietnam, which was later revealed to be untrue.

What a piece of work.

Oh, yes. Wikipedia says that his lawyer wife is a director of ConocoPhillips. Imagine that--income from obscene oil profits.

Democrats: Abandoning Allies, One Country at a Time.

Why are we the only ones that get outraged at comments like Harkin’s? Why isn't the whole country get offended?

Probably because only we politlcal junkies are paying attention. The rest of the country is looking forward to a nice Memorial Day holiday and summer vacation, after having suffered through one of the snowiest winters on record.

Or second hand perception ?

n/t

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Molon Labe!

USNA 2002.

But of course I speak in generalities. The military culture is of course not monolithic.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

that ANY USNA graduate could even understand Harkin's inanity much less agree with it. Weren't they supposed to teach you at the academy such things: "history", "economics", "leadership", "decisiveness", "engineering" and "logic"?

Must be my own biases, but last I checked those are all pretty good subjects to study when trying to become the leader of the free world..

"Small town folks get bitter after which they cling to guns or religion, or antipathy to people who aren't like them, or anti-immigrant sentiment, or anti-trade sentiment."

Not from the inside. A long time ago I worked for a defense contractor. While some of what you say rings true significant parts don't

Creative thinking is valued in the military and if you read any of the papers that come out of the war college you might realize that. What is not valued were the 1% ideas that can fly in the civilian world. When I say 1% ideas I mean the ideas that are just the inspiration without the hard work that turns them into something real.

Seniority without Merit seems at best very difficult to achieve in the current Military. Your mileage may vary on that. Perception.

Being suspicious of outsiders motives is not a trait unique military. Most well run businesses have it to the bone. Also any profession that is involved in life or death matters has to develop a measure of caution.

Just what is communitarian in this context ?

On creativity: The ability to manage is the foundational skill set. Creativity is not. Creative & skilled managers advance faster than their peers. Skilled managers advance. Creativity uncoupled with managerial ability is not rewarded.

Seniority vs Merit: "Time in rate" is a prereq for advancement. An 0-3 can't make 0-4 without spending 5-7 years as an 0-3.

Suspicious of others: concur, its an asset in any competitive envirnoment.

Communitarian: Its an uncommonly strong community. More diverse and yet more united in principle and values than the national mean.

In general

On creativity: The ability to manage is the foundational skill set. Creativity is not. Creative & skilled managers advance faster than their peers. Skilled managers advance. Creativity uncoupled with managerial ability is not rewarded.

This is true everywhere. If you can't bring your creativity to fruition you aren't rewarded. Take a look at the patent office files some time. There are legions of patents for good ideas that never made a penny.

Seniority vs Merit.
As I understand the current Mil. Its up or out. So if you can't be promoted you get the heave ho.

Seeing as you have put Communitarian in context, I can't see how you count it as a negative. Especially when Obama and Hillary are both running on their ties to particular communities.

in my view. Its a positive. I'm obviously failing to articulate my argument in a productive way here. Among my peers in the service this charaterization of the general military culture wouldnt be particularly controversial. In this entire narrative my point has been that the military has an admirable culture that has served it and the country well. In my limited experience in the private sector I've come to the conclusion that a leadership style and decision making process informed by the military cultural experience is not optimal for all situtuations.

I apologize to anyone I have offended.

I will take your apology under advisement, but I do not yet accept it.

I have worked in the private sector for about 15 years. About 8 of those years have been spent in management of one kind or another. I have also been in the Army Reserves for 4 years. 1 year of that time was in a combat zone.

I have found two things to be true about ex-military personnel that I have hired. You are right that military service is very different from the civilian world, and many people leaving the military struggle when they first become civilians. On the other hand, after that transition period is over - experience says about a year, although it varies - noone else that has worked for me can compete.

The reason I am hesitant to accept your apology is because you apologize for something other than the insult you offered. You suggested above that military outlook renders people less capable in thecivilian world. In your apology, you suggested you were just pointing out reasonable differences between military and civilian situations - problem with that is that your point was to suggest exmilitary people didn't quite measure up, and that a slight on Sen. McCain was understandable.

"You suggested above that military outlook renders people less capable in the civilian world."

I'm apologizing becuase in no way did I mean to suggest this. It certainly is inconsitent with my beliefs.

What I was attempting to articulate, which seems consistent with you experience, is that military leadership and decision making methodologies are not optimal for all situtations.

Is completely meaningless in this context. I know what you say you mean, but it is has no point on this thread if that was indeed all you are saying.

You spoke of your experience with military servicemen having had a "culture clash" and strugling with the transition to the civilian world.

Senator Harkin seems to regard this "transition" as a prereq for civilian political leadership. In this context I interpret his question being one of has Senator McCain experienced such a transition.

leadership and decision making methodologies that are not optimal for ALL situtations? I can think of no better leader for this country than a former leader in the military...I personally would love to see Peter Pace as VP to McCain.

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

military leadership seems more top down than civilian leadership. The decision making process in the military (likely driven by a neccesity for fast action) is less deliberative while the private sector (at least in my company) gives greater emphasis to achieving "buy in" at all levels.

always have a "buy in" at all levels...that position requires leadership and strong deliberative nerves of steel. It is not poll driven and should never be so because the masses are fickle...I like to say as a point of fact that 83% of the American public loved the quickness with which we dispatched Saddam and yet now you get less than 50% because they are fickle.

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

That's not the same Saddam Rumsfeld gave the key to Detroit to in 1984, was it Jaded? The one that the US gave all those big, bad weapons to, which with he killed his own people? The masses are fickle - and ignorant. Witness 70% of the US believing a secular Saddam had connections to the religious radical attacks of 9/11, courtesy of the Bush propoganda (forget it, lie) machine.

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

...religious people? Wait, how is that possible? You're secular and they're not!

What stupid, insipid "logic" that is. I love how people (read: lefties) tune out the realities of their own lives in order to draw conclusions that they think take place in a vacuum elsewhere.

started posting here, IIRC, while deployed in Iraq. I especially remember a post of his when there was a mortar attack on his base. So, given his long corporate experience as well, I do think he is uniquely qualified to comment on the contrast between one sort of experience and the other.

I have no military experience. I do have 30+ years of corporate experience. Let me assure you, most companies can get top down REALLY FAST whenever there's trouble.

As far as the Divine Obama, livin' large on the pedestal, he has never run anything more than a legislative office, and has neither the military nor civilian leadership experience customarily associated with a presidential candidate. He did throw grandma under the bus recently, so I guess this could be construed as evidence of decisiveness.

So I wouldn't throw stones at John McCain. Half a loaf is better than no loaf. and John McCain has more than half a loaf. Of course, if Obama gets in, he will simply tax all loaves, which proves experience isn't everything, I suppose.

So I guess the FORTY TWO years McCain has NOT been in the military hasn't given him any of the other requisite skills one would need to be the Chief Executive?

Like, oh, I don't know: being a CONGRESSMAN AND SENATOR for a few decades?!!

"Small town folks get bitter after which they cling to guns or religion, or antipathy to people who aren't like them, or anti-immigrant sentiment, or anti-trade sentiment."

in my view. Its a positive. I'm obviously failing to articulate my argument in a productive way here. Among my peers in the service this charaterization of the general military culture wouldnt be particularly controversial. In this entire narrative my point has been that the military has an admirable culture that has served it and the country well. In my limited experience in the private sector I've come to the conclusion that a leadership style and decision making process informed by the military cultural experience is not optimal for all situtuations.

I apologize to anyone I have offended.

By apologizing you are implying that the automatons on this website can think for themselves. A pure waste of time.

working with military officers, though mostly retired. My wife has lots of experience as a civilian interacting with active military as she handled the finances for our State department of military affairs.

Only a small percentage of the military and of military officers are ever in combat or have combat commands. Most are bureaucrats in uniform. As such they're susceptible to the same foibles as any other bureaucrat and in my experience are better at intrigue than the run of the mill bureaucrat. From about Lt. Colonel on up, I learned to watch them like a hawk. The good guys were good and stood out, the bad guys were often deadly connivers and intriguers.

I see C17wife reacted below with predictable outrage, but she knows what I'm talking about as well. She and I have discussed the leadership issues with my son's unit caused by constant officer turnover as hot young LTs and Captains rolled through his unit long enough to get it on their resume and move on the bigger, better, and safer jobs. A trait they share with hot new managers in the civilian world as well. The military martinet has been with us for a very long time and today's US military is far from free of them. The US military has been so extensively engaged in combat for the last couple of decades, that the combat arms have of necessity eliminated most of the glad-handing career seekers, but I defy anyone here to tell me that the headquarters and the Pentagon don't have more than their fair share of guys looking for the next slot or the opportunity to get out and work for a contractor and intrigueing and cocktail partying in pursuit of that goal.

Back to Harkin's remark, it is simply innane. It panders nicely to the Left's conception of the military and that's what it was for. Never mind that even if it were true, McCain's career was not that of the career officer; he was a flying officer and after he was freed, left the Navy and went into politics lo these many years ago.

In Vino Veritas

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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater

n/t

You said of the military:

(it) "rewards managers but not creative thinkers, traditional, and deferential to seniority (often at the expense of merit)"

this is a crock.

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Molon Labe!

n/t.

Managers maintain the 'status quo' and are given not only the 'goal' but detailed instructions on how to achieve it.

In the military the goal is defined and you are judged on how well you achieve the goal with the resources you are given. Yes, you must be deferential to seniority because they set the goals. As a lower ranking soldier your job is to "git 'er done!"

The military is perhaps the closest to a 'meritocracy' as you'll ever see.

You aren't particularly worth it.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

n/t.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

but insulting our military in any way does not fly with ANY of our "factions". Also, McCain has been in the Senate for decades, you might find he is more diverse than you presume.

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Molon Labe!

I only suggest that it is as legitimage question for national discourse as Obama's percieved liberal, Chicago, elitist, academia roots are.

As for my characterization of the military culture. I think it is unfair to regard the traits I discribed as an insult. Those traits have served the military and our nation well. I merely suggest that what works for the institution of the military may be sub optimal in other institutions. I don't think that is particularly controversial.

...and your presumptions are blatantly on display for everyone else to see. Do not display them further.

Last warning.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

This is what you are saying
That being a part of the military culture can legitimately count as a black mark.

I stirred the pot and recieved the beat down I guess I deserved!

Now I'm humbly skulking out to dinner with my wife with my tail between my legs!

Enjoy a great Saturday night everyone and I'll try to be less controversial next time.

It was unkind of me to say.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

Do medical doctors have the "diversity of cultural outlook to lead all Americans and confront different challenges"? What about lawyers? Do they have that "diversity of cultural outlook to lead all Americans and confront different challenges"? Do U.S. Senators from Iowa possess that popular "diversity of cultural outlook to lead all Americans and confront different challenges"?

Okay, you tell me. All distinct cultures which call people into contact with all variety of other people.

If you're correct, you know, then Tom Harkin understands the Constitution better than did those who wrote it. They intended, but neglected to include, a proscription on former members of the military serving as President.

And our history is ALL WRONG. George Washington should not have been allowed to serve as our President; rather, some guy with a special cultural outlook who had no clue how to hold this nation together should have served first.

I have little doubt Harkin was merely repeating a talking point he heard from someone in the Obama campaign. The "third-Bush-term" nonsense is all David Plouffe's, and Plouffe rhymes with "fluff."

You'd be mistaken if you infered I cared in the least about "McCain's diversity of cultural outlook." I don't.

Putting all my chips on the table I think John McCain is overwhelmingly qualified to be president.

This site has often legitimately made issue with Obama's cultural outlook. I'm merely suggesting that the other side doing the same with McCain's is legitimate political discourse.

I, like most on this site, and deservedly most in the country put the military culture on a pedestal. But you don't have to look around at American popular culture to realize it is no more "mainstream" that Obama's percieved elitist liberalism.

I'll just point out one fallacy of your idiocy.
"Diversity of culture" is more prevalent in the military than in any of those Ivy League schools the other two have been exposed to. And you'll find no one more ready to confront challenges than one brought up around the military. We thrive on overcoming challenges.
You embarass Annapolis.
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Just a typical, small town, white girl...

Who is a proven fraud on his military experience, and is far left of typical Americans, have the cultural background to comment honestly on McCain or any other patriot?

Taking some recent examples, Reagan was a former Democrat who cut his professional teeth in Hollywood but embodied Western style conservatism, George Bush I seemed equally comfortable with the Connecticut blue bloods as he was with the Texas crowd, and Bill Clinton was a Rhodes scholar who convinced the "southern bubba" vote that he related to them.

Hoover was an entrepreneur and an outstanding humanitarian before becoming president. FDR was a to-the-manor-born aristocrat who mastered the art of urban politics like nobody's business. You have already noted Ike. JFK was another aristocrat who reached adulthood while living with his father at the Court of St James. Nixon was a veteran internationalist of long standing by the time of his election. Reagan had unique insight from his years in Hollywood, which was already emerging as one of the most influential new industries on the planet. GHWB grew up as another aristocrat, was a successful entrepreneur, a Congressman, the nation's top spy, top diplomat in China.

We have been well-served, on the whole, by our electoral process.

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Molon Labe!

on nighthawks Mancard...Nice one.

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

(found on Michelle Malkin.com)

Gerry, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

John Wayne

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Molon Labe!

n/t

John Wayne

lesterblog.blogspot.com

The question is, "is there a such thing as too much military service to be president?" What you've spewed here ignores that altogether, and goes entirely off-topic. Why? It wouldn't be blind, mindless BDS, would it now?

By the way -- yep, we all endorse Swiftboating. You know, the word whose actual definition is letting the folks know what a person has really said.

If you are still around, a few points:
- John Kerry was "Swift Boated" by having his fellow veterans tell what they felt was the truth about him.
What they told was largely accurate and proved Kerry a liar. Sort of like how Harkin lied about his military service.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005497

- Since when was serving in the Air National Guard and receiving honorable discharge "(non)-service"?
http://www.ngaus.org/
By the way, Kerry has never released his records as he pledged to do, to 'prove' the Swift Vets lied.
In fact, it seems lefties have a pattern of lying about their military service:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/04/redefining_swiftboating_and_re.ht...
So your question is back attcha:
Your concern over the source of outrage would not be blind, mindless partisanship, would it?

Dang! Too late. I guess you really were as clueless as you sounded.

Democrats: Abandoning Allies, One Country at a Time.

Diversity.

I was blessed to work with people from more places and more walks of life than I could ever have worked with had I stayed a civilian. Some I had trouble understanding when they spoke, some I had trouble understanding when they did something. I learned to understand them so the team could win. (I just gagged myself on a warm fuzzy. Eeew.) True though.

That's another benefit of military experience. You gotta work with the guy next to you. Your life may depend on it.

"Government of the people, by the people, for the people."
A. Lincoln