Redstate

I've often thought this is a downside to affirmative action. If I'm a perfectly qualified student or graduate, are my accomplishments cheapened because whenever I get what I really did earn, many people will automatically assume I got it purely because of my race?

You can insist to be respected all day long, if you wish. You have to earn respect. You don't get it by default.

Many, many smart and hard-working black students deserve respect for their accomplishments. Those students eventually get the respect they deserve---once their colleagues see them demonstrate their skills and talents.

But, because the African-American community insists so much on "diversity," it leaves the impression that they MUST HAVE special consideration, because they can't succeed without it. Hence, African Americans reinforce and perpetuate the stereotypes of themselves that all of us decry.

"Who will stand/On either hand/And guard this bridge with me?" (Macaulay)

There are downsides, believe me, but this ain't one.

Michelle Obama was "cum laude" student doing a double major. She went on to Harvard Law and then scored a job at a top law firm.

Anybody who looked at her and thought she was unqualified was obviously *not* judging her by achievements. They were judging her by how she looked. There is a word for people who do that.

The problem is not that people think so-and-so might be an AA admit or a Legacy Admit. The problem is people who make snap judgements based on race rather than achievemnets. There are good reasons to scrap AA, but impressing these people isn't one of them.

Care to elaborate?

Anywhere?

...which means that she was beating out her peers in GPA.

She also got into Harvard Law School. After Harvard Law, she got a job from a top law firm.

What must she do to get respect for being hardworking and intellegent? Top school, top grades, top job. Baby can't get a break!

Refuting her political views is understandable. But it is very wrong and unfair to simply assume (with no facts) that she is any less intellegent or qualified than any other person with two Ivy Leauge degrees.

if I had taken a bunch of classes on racism, sexism, et al (collectively "victimology studies") and spouted the PC-line consistently. Instead, I did the opposite and learned more for having done it.

I don't doubt she is hardworking and smart, but her GPA means nothing to me. Getting in to Harvard Law means even less given AA. Her lack of perspective outweighs whatever talents she has to bring. Getting paid $300k for community relations while your husband is a Senator should, if she is smart, make her realize that she is blessed. Instead, she things having to pay loans back is a bummer.

In terms of raw intellectu, I wonder what her LSAT and SAT scores were. I know Senator Schumer aced his SATs (1600) which means he must be smart in some ways, so he must know that a lot of what he says is plain wrong.

I would rather rely on the collective wisdom at a NASCAR race than I would on the top 1/3 at Harvard Law.

My GPA is law school would have been higher too if I actually cared about my liberal professors and the crap they were spewing... but then again it would have been much higher if I wasn't always hungover.

You wrote: "I don't doubt she is hardworking and smart."

That's really all I wanted to hear. I can understand if people don't like her attitude or don't want to vote for her husband.

As for LSAT and SAT, we don't know. But she was skipped a grade in elementary school.

is that she seemed to feel like people looked down on her at Princeton. Any thoughts as to which is the case?
- Did I misinterpret what she said?
- Was it just a misperception on her part? If so, can you speculate as to why?
- Was her perception correct? If so, does it mean the typical liberal ivy school elite white students and professors are racists?
- Maybe some combo of the above?

...people looked down on her at Princeton.

I suspect she felt this way because it was true.

Eeven after 20 years of progress, I still see posters here assumming (with no facts, no evidence) that she was unqualified to be there. They assume this despite her solid academic and professional credentials.

It must have been worse on Princeton's campus during the 1980s.

She grew up being told certain things, absorbed the prevalent beliefs at Princeton and Harvard and then saw her party nominate such clowns as Mondale and Dukakis, all during what you might call her formative years. I think everyone tends to keep experiences from that age range close to their core.

Considering what I've heard from many of her peers at top law firms, she might be one I'd get along with easier than most. This doesn't make certain of her statements any less wrong but I don't take them personally.

The Red State Update guys on YouTube had a good line in one of their recent videos when talking about Barry's admonitions to lay off his wife. Jackie said (maybe not quite verbatim), "if it weren't for candidates' spouses running around saying stupid things, you'd be in second place, Obama."

lesterblog.blogspot.com

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Small is beautiful.

...I rememberd wrong.

She did graduate with Honors, though. This means that the academic work she was doing was better than average.

When hiring employees any individual may possess skills and education but also bring an attitude that is disruptive to the work environment. The chip on Michele's shoulder is obvious and distracting. Who wants to work around a constantly angry person?

M Penny

...she *was* hired at a top law firm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidley_Austin).

People who believe that the Free Market rewards those who are smart and work hard must concede that The Market delivered a favorable judgement of Michelle.

Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO

Just another example. Michele Obama believes in black fantasy white world. Where being white means you are automatically admitted to the college of your choice where you attend on your trust fund. You get your summer jobs working for one of daddy's friends or in daddy's office. You get the job you want, the paycheck you want, the raises, promotions, the bonuses -- all of it comes your way because you are white.

Life is a breeze because you are white. You don't have to study or work as hard.

....Now excuse me while I get my black butler to bring me more cream for my coffee and correct my colored maid on how I want my sheets ironed. Oh, my troubles in life are just so taxing -- why can't these people do things right... after all I must live in black fantasy white world.

M Penny

Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO

Mrs. Obama's well-publicized statements have made me think the same things.

Thankfully, not all of us who surely have and have had our crosses to bear are *such big whiners* as her and her hubby.

I do not think these said attitudes are attractive to all of us who have done our fair share of dues paying.

Frankly, this posturing and etc. is thoroughly disgusting.

Glad to see we can still have a sense of humor, otherwise, I'd be in big trouble. I no longer own a tv to throw out the upstairs window, and it's too late for operation chaos in Illinois.

You can't possibly think Michelle believes in black fantasy white world, can you?

colored culture?
I've always thought that those who pushed "multi-culturalism" would one day regret it. I'm wondering if they can feel it biting them in the butt yet?
For me, I see cultural differences being rooted in regions more than by race, but what do I know? I am after all...
Just a typical, small town, white girl...

Your ignorance is showing.

If we have Black Studies degrees, why not White Studies? There is a good counter-argument that "White" is too broad a term, fine.

Scotch-Irish Studies
Irish-American Studies
Italian-American Studies

I say that this would be a good idea.

I think it would decrease racism if more Whites came to realize that "White" is not a default or norm, but is a rich culture with it's own history.

Possibly even moreso now. Given her choice of churches and her comments on the campaign trail, I can't help but think those are deep seated feelings she holds. And I doubt much will change, even if she does get to occupy the White House.
Long before Jeremiah became front and center, Michelle O was making veiled race baiting statements to her crowds. Gamecock covered some of it.

It seems that color, not character is more important to Michelle. MLK would be so sad.
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Just a typical, small town, white girl...

and then she spent the next twenty years in a black liberation theology church reinforcing her racist, separatist beliefs.

I'm a few years older than Michele. I don't know what it is to be judge on skin color. I do know what it is to be hired as the token female.

M Penny

...and if you are White, then you *do* know what it is to be judged on your skin color.

The difference is that most of those judgements were positive. All the times that you didn't get asked for an extra piece of ID, of didn't get a speeding ticket, or didn't get asked to leave a resturant, or didn't have your resume rejected (http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20030430-000001.html) because you had a Black-sounding name. The bank didn't red-line your neighborhood.

For you, Racism is the dog the didn't bark. Even if you are not racist, you still benefitted a small (possibly only symbolic) amount.

But we gotta remember that we are talking about the 1980s. There is so much less racisim now...America has made and continues to make huge progress.

Bringing out old stories about how bad Slavery and Jim Crow and Strom Thurmond were is divisive. It is not what America needs now.

Do NOT lay that white guilt crap on me.

Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO

You have nothing to be guilty for. You didn't do anything.

That's the whole point. Even people who are *not* racists benefitted from it. That is just a historical fact. But, except for a few situations, these benefits were small, tiny. And today, they are barely significant.

But just because you might have got a benefit does not mean you are evil, guilty, or less of a person. It doesn't even mean you need to give anything back.

But never be so naive as to assume that because you are *not* racist that *nobody* is racist.

I don't "benefit" from not being black, just like if someone doesn't steal from me but steals from someone else, I'm not "benefiting" from not being stolen from. I'm simply not being discriminated against or stolen from. It's a neutral position.

It would be a positive benefit if people actually gave me someone additional as a result of my skin color, but who does that?

So it's neutral treatment versus negative treatment, not positive treatment versus negative treatment. The reason this is significant is because the solution to the problem is to eliminate the negative treatment, not to additionally treat whites negatively in the guise of eliminating some imagined positive benefit.

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Small is beautiful.

her current statements. When she says she has never been proud of her country in her adult life. Isn't that consistent with not being proud of a "White cultural and social structure that will only allow me to remain on the periphery of society; never becoming a full participant?"

If the rumor about her railing against "whitey" in church is true, would it be all that hard to believe in light of the statements in the thesis?

A lot of things we said and did twenty years ago are entirely irrelevant to the issues of today. But this was a senior thesis, written by a bright woman at an Ivy League university on an issue that is as relevant today as it was 20 years ago, at least to the liberals.

She doesn't get a pass. She wants to be First Lady.

Bill Dupray at The Patriot Room

But this was a senior thesis, written by a bright woman at an Ivy League university...

Nope. That should read:
But this was a senior thesis, written by a bright a woman who was likely unqualified and was let into at an Ivy League university because of an affirmative action set aside.
____
CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

Michelle Obama wrote:

"I sometimes feel like a visitor on campus; as if I really don't belong...it often seems as if, to them , I will always be Black first and a student second."

1985 was a different social climate. There was more racism then than there is now. Maybe her feelings were a response to the times in which her research was done.

However, even in 2008, there are still people who will look at her and and assume (on no evidence, no facts) that she is less qualified than others.

C'mon. Surely we can do better.

That was on paper(if you know where to find it)now she's screaming it on TV. She' more openly racist than he is. Her Rev Wright poster hangs next to Carl Marx. Her plan is to follow Barry for her 2 terms. Scary.

reconfirms she has not had a change of mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyUsDOeFo24

McCain '08

is not an impetus for personal success.

What is the greatest guarantee of poverty -- having children out of wedlock and at a young age. Black men fathering numerous children with several baby mommas but not being present in the daily lives and homes of any. Dropping out of school or not focusing on education. What is much of "black culture" is to shun education and strong work ethic as "acting white".

I see young black women who have no respect for their bodies or their lives -- and yet they demand respect from me. To give any impression of disrespecting them is to invite a violent reaction.

So as Michele Obama tells me that Barak is going to demand that I leave my comfort zone I wonder exactly what comfort zone she means and who is going to be forced to leave them.

M Penny

whether they respect themselves or not. It works very well for me. It might just be me, but you sound paranoid. I'm sure you won't have to stray too far from your comfort zone.

I am standing in the Starbuck's next to my office within 1/4 mile of the US Capitol. Happily ordering my coffee when the woman in front of me starts to talk about terrible day. Polly Anna here remarks back something about cup of coffee what I need to soothe me. I get a very angry face look at me -- put up that flat palm hand and give me a 2 minute crazy angry lecture on all the ills because of slavery in world. The Starbucks workers (all African American) did their best to ease this woman down.

Sorry -- but we have 7 to 12 teenage girls and boys beating one white woman on a bus because they don't want the woman to sit in an empty seat.

So we have a gals weekend away -- and stop in the McDonalds on the way home for a burger. We order and stand to the side as we wait becasue of some strange delay. In comes the young man in uniform and he stands at the counter to make his order. The workers obviously are having trouble putting our order together and have left the counter. In walk three black girls dressed in the current skanky ho fashions of today and they just cut in line in front of the soldier and start boisterously shouting their orders back to the workers who are not even at the register. All four of us older white women look at the soldier who has stepped back from the counter, smile and remark about his not being in line. Wrong move.

My comfort zone is thinking that I can wait in line order a burger and the next diners will also wait their turn and order their dinners. My comfort zone is thinking that I can order a Starbucks and not get some angry black woman given me a history lesson on slavery to some off handed remark about a cup of coffee will cure what ails me.

I'm not being paranoid -- I am working in our nation's capitol.

M Penny

Think about it this way:

Hearing you lecture us about some Black Gangbangers or Black Rude People or Black People Wearing Skanky Clothes...

...probably has the same effect on Blacks that that Starbucks lecture about "all the ills because of slavery in world" had on you.

if you would just sit back for a second, become introspective, and look at your reply. you will realize how utterly condescending, presumptuous, and holier than thou it is.

Please have the humility to learn that there is a different reality than everything you learned in your prep school and college.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

African culture, actually many African cultures as the slaves were not homogenous culturally. That factual statement only goes so far. Most of the Africans brought here involuntarily came from hunter-gatherer cultures. Had those Africans come here voluntarily in a first class cabin rather than chained to the below-decks of a slave ship, the African hunter-gatherer culture would have been just as surely eliminated as it was largely an unsuccessful culture in the New World after contact. The Native Americans tried, some still do, to persist in it and by and large remain dependents on the majority culture.

What gets lost in the "African Culture" discussion is that importation was ended in 1808 and the "African American" population at that time was a little under a half million people. By 1860, the slave population was something just over 3 million people, almost entirely as the result of natural increase.(One cannot say there was NO importation after 1808, Americans particularly have a long and storied tradition of smuggling, but both the US and, especially, the British Navies patrolled very aggressively against slavers and most authorities concede that little of the increase was from illegal importation.). Thus, the African cultures were supplanted first by a rural Southern slave culture. After 1865, the slave culture was modified into a rural Southern agricultural labor culture that for both poor, unlanded Blacks and poor, unlanded Whites was a brutal peonage that lasted for the better part of a century. Prior to the New Deal and WWII, the daily lives of poor Southern Whites and poor Southern Blacks were equally impoverished both materially and intellectually. In matters of law and privilege, poor Blacks were subject to the whims of all Whites, but poor Whites were equally subject to the whims of better off Whites. The Southern ruling class suppressed, brutally if necessary, anyone, Black or White, who tried to rise above their "station." The White laboring class was at the mercy of threats to replace them with Blacks should they get "uppity," and the Black laboring class was at the mercy of the Sheriff and the Klan or its less formal successors should they get "uppity." Most of the thrust of New Deal Era agricultural and labor policy was to get the surplus agricultural labor off the farm and out of the rural South, sometimes even by forced dispossesion. WWII's labor demands allowed much of the displaced White labor force to relocate or to find more attractive wage work off the farm. Nothing much was done for the displaced Black labor force. By the '50s and '60s, changing economics and mechanization left the Southern Black agricultural labor force as dispossesed both culturally and economically as were the contrabands who followed the Union armies during and just after the Civil War. Southern Blacks, the vast bulk of the Black population, were literally cast adrift into a society for which they were almost totally unprepared. The transition was wrenching even for the more privileged Whites forced off the farm and into the industrial economy. One need only look at the themes of much of so-called Country Music of the times to see the expressions of longing and disorientation in songs such as "I Want to go Home," about a rural Southerner working in a Detroit auto plant. Few Blacks had even that opportunity and as they were forced from the farm, they were forced to the cities and the Black ghettos.

The US callously abandoned the contrabands and freed slaves (and unlanded Southern Whites as well) to a century of peonage while it imported masses of immigrant labor for a booming industrial America. Even the Great Society and its aftermath has preferred to subsidize the ghetto rather than take the hard steps that would be necessary to eliminate it. Like their rural White counterparts of a generation before, the great problem is that people so situated cannot see themselves situated otherwise. Plenty of White Southerns have slid into dependency and professional victimhood, but it is not encouraged. The self-styled Black leaders have embraced dependency and like their slave forebears confine their vision of "doing well" to making sure that Massa, in today's World, the government, provides new shoes and clothes and plenty of food. The situation fairly cries for a conservative solution that can show a young Black man or woman a future not based on either dependency or criminality or which does not have the nagging self-doubt imposed by affirmative action programs.

I came out of the rural South of the '50s and '60s and by my teenaged years knew full well that there was no future there for me, literally and figuratively, and with the certain knowlege that the only people who gave a damn about that fact were my parents who didn't know how to teach me to make another future for myself; they were totally stuck in the old Southern world of small towns and subsistence agriculture. By the Grace of God and by dint of hard work and good fortune - and a few, a very few but very important, mentors, I managed to make my way out of the dark trap of that old world. I wish I knew the way to show so many who need it so much their own way to a vision of a new future for themselves.

In Vino Veritas

It's brilliant. Post it.

Bill Dupray at The Patriot Room

And, I'd love to hear Zoot and Martin chime in on some of this.
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Just a typical, small town, white girl...

BlackRepub?

*****
Unrepentant Black nationalist, Unapologetic Black conservative!

IIRC, he is African-American as well.
Black Repub is moving and getting married, so we probably won't hear from him for a while.
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Just a typical, small town, white girl...

" Got to love the Lord for making things like that."
Morally Compromised

You have a talent.

Thanks.

The only addition (or modification, if you like) is that I think much of that "dependency" mentality or culture came as a perverse reaction to try to define Black culture as "not being White." I will even say that, considering race relations in America, it is understandable that African-Americans would want to culturally define themselves as "not White." However, it is wrong and inexcusable that in trying to define themselves as "not White," many have and are rejecting the many great things and positive cultural values about America.

Moreover, there was a positive Black culture that was being developed before. Did you know that until the 1940's that Black men had a higher employment rate than White men (and higher than both Black and White women, too)?

Think about it. When Black men could be lynched for walking on the wrong side of the street and there were perfectly legal signs that said "no 'n-words' need apply" Black men could find and hold a job.

And during that same time period, African-Americans, while we had a higher illegitimate birth rate, had a higher marriage rate than their White counterparts. Again, what happened.

Indeed, when I hear Black men and their apologists complain that the reason they cannot stay with and support their families is because of slavery, I am outraged! Do they realize that the first things Blacks did once manumitted was to search for and collect their family members separated by slavery.

Indeed, some estimates are that a quarter of all African-American slaves attempted to escape at one time or another: Think about it, in an era when the country justly respected the idea of Federalism, escaped slaves were such a national issue that Federal fugitive slave laws were enacted. But, contrary to popular belief, the major destination for the escaped slaves was not (initially) the (free) North but to other parts of the (slaveholding) South to first reunite with their family members.

But what happens today?

I argue that it is all cultural. And as a "Black nationalist," I want to restore that strong, pro-family and pro-enterprise culture that we were developing before.

But again, Achance, I think we agree.

*****
Unrepentant Black nationalist, Unapologetic Black conservative!

Having studied the pre-civil rights era black literature and the Harlem Renaissance. I can say that you are absolutely right. The black family, black entrepreneurship, black learning, and black creativity were all once very strong.

It is the failure of the civil rights movement after about 1966, the rise of acceptance of crime and bad behavior, and the increasing dependency on socialism that has caused so much havok among Black, (and White) Americans.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

in his grandfather, using both senses of the word character, was quite common in my youth; strong, independent, Black working men, many in skilled trades. Blacks "owned" masonry work in most of The South and also roofing. The Pullman Porter in his day was a Black cultural icon. As a boy, I spent far more time with "Old Martin," a handyman for us and many others, than I spent with my father or grandfathers. He was more than happy to have a kid tagging along as he fixed and mended and I must say taught me much of what I knew about such things and of woodscraft and the like. But, The South being The South, when he was working at our place, we always fed him lunch (dinner in The South of those days) and we always ate at the kitchen table while he ate alone at the dining room table.

And I'm glad we agree.

In Vino Veritas

And Zoot, too. But I think it only fair to point out that part of the "African cultures" you refer to included slavery. It's not uncommon in "hunter-gatherer" cultures for them to hunt and gather members of other villages/clans/tribes. This makes it hard for me to comprehend the infatuation of some African-Americans (e.g., the Black Liberation crowd) with their African roots. Their identification of the institution of slavery with some black/white racial divide comes across as a poor excuse for anti-white bigotry. This is especially true of those, like Obama Jr, who have no more business complaining of "slavery" than I do.

Other than that, your posts were very informative, and suggest, as does Sowell's work, that much of the alienation in the current "Black culture" derives from different, and more recent, experiences and motivations than slavery.

I personally prefer "African-American" because it is descriptive of who I am. Much like Irish-American, Italian-American and everything else. Besides, it is more concise than "American of primarily African descent."

If you really think "ever other race -color" use a hypenated term for any other reason, why don't you simply ask them instead of just assuming?

Sorry to burst your bubble.

*****
Unrepentant Black nationalist, Unapologetic Black conservative!

and I can trace my ties to Sweden back to the early 1900s. I don't refer to myself as a Canadian-American even though I can trace my ancestors to Canada in the mid 1800s. I don't refer to myself as an Irish/Scotish American even though I can trace my ties to Scotland to the early 1700s and Ireland the 1600s. I don't refer to myself as a Native American even though I am 1/16th native American.

I consider myself an American because I was born in this country, my parents were born in the US, and my grandparents were born in the US.

My identity is in being an American.

M Penny

I always refer to myself as a Native American. Any form I fill out that has that option, I check it. I was born here. My parents were born here. My grandparents were all born here. That is native enough for me.

Fortuna Favet Fortibus

You got me on that one! I recently read that approximately 10% of Americans have familial connections to the passengers of the Mayflower.

I'm a 13th generation American, so in those respects, I'm a native American, too!

is when Maggie in Indiana asserts:[People who describe themselves as 'hypenated-Americans' do so b]ecause it helps get things not worked for ,entitled to,or deserved.

Personally, I don't think Maggie in Indiana knows what she's talking about, has never asked anyone who uses a "hypenated-American" self-description why they do so, and if she did she would not accept what they said any way.

Let me put myself on the line. I describe myself as an "African-American." From even the very, very little you know about me from my posting, do you think I call myself an "African-American" because I think it helps get things not worked for, entitled to, or deserved?

*****
Unrepentant Black nationalist, Unapologetic Black conservative!

Some do find themselves better described by their heritage. I am a third year psychology student, we recently finished a discussion about what defines a person and heritage is certainly important.

However, I do see some of the original point. I rarely hear anyone of European descent (Spain aside) refer to themselves as a "Ethnicity"-American unless they are here with a green card. My great-grandparents came to America from Germany. I am less American by some standards than a few of the commenters to this post are. However, I have never referred to myself as a German-American. I have much pride in the German culture and am proud of some of what Germany has stood for (Nazism and World Wars aside), but I am first and foremost an American and will go by no other name. I do not readily offer my ethnic background unless someone inquires, which happens as my last name is very obvious so they will say "That's a nice, strong German name" on occasion and I will reply that I have German roots.

I rarely hear Japanese- or Chinese-American, either. I have worked with some people from both of these nations and they would much rather associate themselves as simply American. One woman told me that if anyone really wants to know, they can probably tell looking at her and she doesn't feel it necessary to add Japanese-American.

Usually, I only hear African-American, Hispanic, Latina, or Native American from those who live in America but associate with their heritage that way.

Just some thoughts. I do find it odd that everyone living here for an extended time doesn't just use "American" sometimes, but I chalk it up to "to each his own."

----

Conservative Californian _{(isn't that some kind of oxymoron?)}

Freedom of Religion NOT Freedom from Religion

Drudge linked her thesis when it was news, several months ago.

Nobody volunteered to read it, so I took one for the team and found a couple of nuggets.

Bill Dupray at The Patriot Room

The "Us vs. Them" attitude in the 1980s was an artifact of the times, a holdover from 1960s when Blacks paid taxes but couldn't vote.

The Reverend Wright Generation (and, to be fair, the Southern Strategy Republicans) have passed or are passing.

Really.

Read up on it.

Not only will you read up on it, you'll be writing a 750 word essay on what you've read, and sending it in. Please be sure to have at least one section analyzing State and local races, not to mention current State legislature partisan breakdowns.

Once we get it, we'll think about turning your account back on.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

"ma deuce says no truce"

President Bush's whole party beasts the burden of his acclimated self-generated difficulties because the Republ.....Oh nevermind you wont answer anyways.

"I've seen this troll before!"

now known as Mustafa Amman Sunni.

"ma deuce says no truce"

...also giving out points for postings?