A Rudy Reality Check [comments enabled]

By Dan McLaughlin

Like the Fredheads before South Carolina, I refuse to just roll over and play dead on Rudy Giuliani, who I believe remains the best potential president among the available Republican contenders and who I still think would be a strong candidate in November. But the simple fact is, the polls are not looking good for Rudy. Look at RCP: six straight polls showing Rudy running third in Florida. Rudy seems destined to get a much stronger third place than Fred did, but he almost certainly need to win Florida outright to remain viable, and he absolutely needs to beat either McCain or Romney there to have any reason at all to stay in the race through February 5. A Florida victory could rapidly restore his competitiveness in his core states (e.g., NY, NJ, CA, IL) but his voters there, me included, will rapidly defect to one of the remaining viable candidates (probably just McCain and Mitt, if Huck finishes fourth in a Southern state) if Rudy's efforts in Florida can't push him ahead of at least one of those two and allow him to present himself as the strongest anti-McCain or anti-Romney alternative.

Four days to go. Rudy's gotta make his move now, or go the way of Fred. And Huck does too.

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A Rudy Reality Check [comments enabled]

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Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

The NH Dem polls were right about everything but the order of the top 2 finishers. They were right about Edwards finishing 3rd and Hillary and Obama being the top 2 candidates.

Something happens to a lot of voters when they see that their guy is not in the top 2: they switch gears and vote for one of the top 2.

It makes sense.

If I'm a fan of Giuliani, but he has no chance of winning, I should switch to someone who does have a shot at winning.

Someone with executive experience.

Someone whose made his money outside of working for the government.

Someone who would put justices on the Supreme Court that valued free speech over McCain-Feingold's gag order.

Did I give out too many hints for you?

He is my number 2, now that Fred is gone. Mitt is number 1. I could really support Rudy if it comes to that. More importantly, for me at least, if Rudy stays viable, it makes it harder for the Huckster.

He has character and class.

And he's a head taller than McCain.

And I bet Sen. McCain has some stories on why he's not as tall as some guys are...

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It really hit me today that, possibly within one weeks time, the two best candidates for president will essentially be gone. It's made me quite sad today. I happened to prefer Rudy first and Fred was my number two, but order of preference doesn't mean a whole lot when neither is viable.

Of course, like the idiot I am, I'm holding out hope for a dramatic turnaround by Tuesday. However, I'm slowing coming to grasps with the fact that I'm going to have to hold my nose when I vote in Novemeber and essentially I'll be voting against Clinton and not for the nominee.

The crappy thing is that the candidate that "stinks" the most is probably the candidate that has the best chance of winning in Novemeber, that being McCain. While the candidate that "stinks" the least, I feel will get trounced in November, that being Romney.

Man, what a bummer... I think I'll just move on and start fighting for House and Senate candidates.

and the base is so uncomfortable with McCain, presuming he becomes the undisputed frontrunner after Florida, why wouldn't Rudy stay in anyway and team with Romney or try for the nomination at a brokered convention?

The Patriot Room

out. He has raised a half million dollars in the last three days. He is number one in Georgia, and tied in Alambama. Number one in Texas and Oklahoma. He will be the broker. I think he will pick John McCain. No, Huckabee will not be king, but kingmaker...looks like it to me. But what do I know, I voted for Goldwater.

Huckabee will be with us all the way to the convention. I think it is a good thing myself, being a Social Conservative. And I think it is good for my candidate John McCain.

That love fest is the real threat to Romney, even if he wins Florida and gains the MO. Hopefully Rudy will counter by doing well in Florida and beyond, diluting any influence Huckabee may have.

Go ahead, make your jokes, Mr. Jokey... Joke-maker. But let me hit you with some knowledge. Quit now.

-White Goodman

too early!

Why wouldn't McCain start devouring those leads if Huck can't actually win some races? Huckabee is a regional and niche candidate and the yanks won't like him. I will concede a similar argument could be made about Giuliani's appeal in the south, but Rudy has national stature and experience governing as a conservative.

Somebody on the ticket needs some core conservative credentials on some of the issues other than national security.

The Patriot Room

I think Huckabee wins Georgia and Oklahoma, maybe even Alabama. He is up in some polls in Texas. He will gather a lot of delegates in other states I think. If Romney wins Florida, then McCain will need to do well in other states. If we go to a convention, I do think it is possible that Huckabee holds the cards for the evendial winner. And yes, I think that means a V.P. bid. Huckabee and McCain like each other, and that helps. Huckabee could deliver most all southern states and Arkansas, even if Hillary runs. It makes more sense than many on this site want to believe

As a son of the South, by CrabCakes

I can safely say that the South (or at least the Deep South) can safely be ignored when the GOP is picking its nominee. Alabama, Mississippi, etc. wouldn't vote for a Democratic president if it were Robert E. Lee (D) v. The Devil Himself (R).

Focus on the "Semi-South" (Missouri, Virginia, etc.), but there's no need to worry about losing the Deep South with any GOP candidate.

no matter where they come from. And Huckabee will get plenty of them.

expressed above that Giuliani might ostracize some in the South like Huckabee would in the North, albeit to a lesser extent. I was simply saying that there's no need to worry about that as long as Giuliani has an "R" after his name.
Huckabee might try to play king-maker with his delegates, but I don't think it will be an issue. Either Romney or McCain will breakout after Florida and clinch the nomination by late February/early March.

As a daughter of the South by bamapachyderm

I wholeheartedly agree.

I'm a bit disappointed in my fellow Alabamians that my candidate isn't holding the lead in the primary, but you're right. It really doesn't matter much in the general. It will to some, but against Hillobama? Oh h3ll no!

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~ Beth ~
John McCain

What part of Bama? by CrabCakes

I was born and raised in Mobile (you know we brought Mardi Gras to America...frickin' New Orleans just copied us!).

I left for school in '99 and haven't made my way back yet. On nasty Baltimore days like this one (and most of the rest of them), I really miss the place, though.

I'm a Daphne boy, myself by kingnavland

who has now been transplanted to the cold mountains of Virginia. Small world.

In fact, we do just that: the delegates of those states are doubled through lots of bonus delegates, so their voice in the convention will be magnified.

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It would be fun to see another map like this one in 2008:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege1964-Large.png

(with Arizona traded for Arkansas of course).

for sure. I am just stating a possiblity and an opionion. I would support any person John McCain would pick for V.P., even Mitt Romney. And don't laugh, it is possible as well.

Great idea! by bamapachyderm

I'm not supporting Huckabee in the primary, but I'm always happy to see the reliably Republican South have more of a voice in the process. :)

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~ Beth ~
John McCain

I'm not being combatative, here. I'm honestly curious. I happen to really like Rudy too, but I don't think he can win. There are too many social conservatives who despise him, IMO.

What are your thoughts, Dan?

“.....women and minorities hardest hit”

The Rudy ones were just the first haters to come out and make it known. People hate Mitt Romney, people hate Mike Huckabee, people hate John McCain, everyone hates Ron Paul. Whoever gets the nomination will have to deal with alienating a significant segment of the base.

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Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

He'd lose some, or even a lot of SoCon voters. But Rudy is one of those candidates who will pick voters from the other halls, both I and D. People like him. America's Mayor and all that.

Plus, people trust him on Terror. He's a good leader, and he gets the crowds going. That is of immense value in the general. All around, he'd make a great candidate in the general.

Former Fredhead, Current McCainiac
absentee

5+ nt by bamapachyderm

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~ Beth ~
John McCain

The polls have been remarkably unhelpful on average before nearly every other primary so far, I don't see why I should pay them any attention before this one. They've been more a hinderance than a help. So I'm definitely not giving up on Rudy yet -- he's been my first choice for many months now.

That said, if the polls turn out to be accurate and Rudy *does* come in third on Tuesday, I hope he's got the sense to know a lost cause when he sees it, and gets out of the race before Feb 5.

Since my third choice (Thompson) is already out of the race, I'd be rather frustrated if Giuliani loses Florida badly but then stays in long enough to siphon votes from McCain (my second choice), thus giving the race to my last choice, Romney. (I don't count Huck or Paul as a choices -- I don't choose either of them...)

"Government cannot take care of you. You've got to take care of yourself." - Rudy Giuliani

... I think Rudy is done if he doesn't win Florida, and Huck is probably done as well if he doesn't finish at least second or a strong third (he's in forth place right now). I think Huck will probably hang around until after Super Tuesday so he can secure a couple of Southern states (he's running strong in Georgia and Tennessee right now) which would give him some leverage at the convention.

If McCain wins in Florida (I hope), he will all but wrap up the nomination and make Super Tuesday a walk in the park. If Rudy wins, all of a sudden he's back in business. If Romney wins, he puts McCain on his heals but doesn't exactly put his rivals out of business.

Hang all traitors and secessionists! Hang them high!
- Me

studied in political science classes for decades. He has not changed his positions, and the false meme that people did not know his positions was wildly off the mark. Basically he was just like Fred, he tried to win a battle by not engaging the enemy.

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Molon Labe!

You are correct that he must win to remain viable. He is fighting with McCain for the same moderate vote in the GOP and McCain's recent success among these voters will most certainly increase if he beats Rudy in Florida.

Having lived through all of Rudy's elections in New York it might be helpful to keep in mind that Rudy is not a great vote getter. Except for his re-election victory against a far Left opponent who was abandoned by the Democrat Party he has not been a great vote getter. He lost his first try at the mayoralty; he won in a close race; and during his unofficial Senate race against Hillary he kept dropping in the polls just like he has done in the presidential. And before 9-11 all the polls showed that New Yorkers had enough of him.

It seems like the more people see of him the less they like him. Some evidence of this is that he (and no other candidate) has camped out in Florida and has become less popular along the way.

If Romney and McCain get negative enough at each other, maybe they'll drive voters away from both of them and (back) to Giuliani.

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Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

 
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