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Those Heartless Religious Folks Are At It Again!
By simpson316 Posted in Archived — Comments (17) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
Okay, not my opinion. I'm sitting here on Redstate tonight debating whatever with whomever. I have CNN Headline News on in the background. I see the following headline on Nancy Grace's program: Girl dies, parents pick prayer over medical care. FoxNews has the story here.
I'll recap the story as best I can. The girl's name is Madeline Neumann. Her parents are extremely religious people. Madeline had diabetes. Over the course of the last couple of weeks the family reports that Madeline had been suffering from nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness. Her family, as a result of their religious beliefs, shuns medical intervention. They believed that through the power of prayer that their daughter would be healed. Unfortunately for the Neumann's, Madeline died on Sunday from complications of her diabetes.
Nancy Grace, in the ultimate liberal condescension, refuses to allow that parents have the rights to raise their children as they best see fit. She, as usually is the case, gets on her high soap box complaining about how a parent would believe that "prayer" would save their daughter. While I, nor many of our readers, would ascribe to the notion that medicine is bad, I certainly do not begrudge another parent the right to chose how their children live. That is the real issue in this case. A parent followed their beliefs. There is nothing criminal here. The parents are the ones that will have to live their lives after their daughters death.
Thank you Nancy Grace for taking the opportunity to strike at those who would dare to have religious convictions.
One point is that they are not in a cult. The family isn't even affiliated with a church. They apparently have come to this decision on their own from their readings of scripture.
As distasteful as it may seem, I firmly believe that a parent should have a right to determine their child's medical care. That should include the right not to treat their child.
Fighting for conservatism one day at a time.
but I simply find it in this case to be deplorable. I understand the desire to keep government out of our private lives, I almost always agree with this view.
In this case you are saying a parent can decide whether their child should live or die. This is a bridge too far. Our Constitution says ALL men are created equal, and endowed by their Creator to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The 11 year old child has the same amount of individual rights as the parents.
you should click on this link: http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080326/WDH...
in case you do not, here are a few quotes from from clergy in the article
"Why would we stay away from blessings that would help us?" he asked. "(Just) praying is like daring God to act when we don't avail ourselves to the means he's given us to act"
"God works through medicine. To not use that is tantamount to not using air. It's like saying, 'I'm going to rely on God to breathe, but not use the air he's given me.'"
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Molon Labe!
we much more agree than disagree on this one.
I would never withhold medical treatment for my child. [That would be really weird considering I make my living selling health insurance.] I just don't see there being any reason why we shouldn't allow the parents to determine their treatment.
Would it be any less crazy if the parents had used "alternative" medicinal treatments such as herbal rememdies, etc.?
Fighting for conservatism one day at a time.
but there is a legal basis that says "what would a reasonable person do". In this case, letting your child die for religious reasons is not reasonable.
Here is an example. When the British colonized India, they found that many forced wives to be burned alive with their dead husbands. The British were much less multi cultural back then, they stopped to practice regardless of religious views. The practice was deemed wrong, and was stopped.
We probably should not continue this argument. We have both said our piece here and we respect each other. I will let others defend my case, their case, or your case as the case may be :)
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Molon Labe!
Although I'm not really sure what IANAL stands for.
Fighting for conservatism one day at a time.
" Got to love the Lord for making things like that."
Morally Compromised
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Molon Labe!
That title is proof of why I fail at the game Dirty Minds!
Fighting for conservatism one day at a time.
The parents should be free to make choices for themselves, no matter how detrimental to themselves, but in this case their liberty extended to the tip of their dead daughter's nose.
Their actions put their daughter in harms way, so much so that she died from their deprivation of needed medical care. They have no more right to do that than to shove her out of an airplane without a parachute because they believe angels will catch her.
I think a jury of their peers will agree this is some form of manslaughter or negligent homicide. They may have lacked the intent to harm or kill her, but a reasonable person would have known better. And people, reasonable or otherwise, need to know they will be prosecuted for this type of thing.
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- "Make love not war? Real men can do both!"
to child neglect at a minimum. If it were me, I'd go for child abuse.
You do not keep children from medical care. Period.
I am very strong in my faith and I believe very much in the power of prayer. There is absolutely no way I would let my child suffer and die like that though. God gives us these children as precious gifts. He entrusts us to care for them to the very best of our ability. These parents failed in that duty.
Well, while you are more than likely right, I'm not sure I would want to be right. I guess there is a provsion in the WI laws that make this type of action "legal".
IMO, it just goes to show there are wackos in every group. Prayer...sure.......I wonder, has it been prayer all along that provides food and nurishment to the child and the parents?...No, I think not. No, I guess the parents see some limits of prayer.
If not jail, definately looney bin...and I'm tempted to say sterilization, but that might raise to much ire.
" Got to love the Lord for making things like that."
Morally Compromised
Those of us who are pro-life argue that the unborn child has rights that prohibit the mother (and/or father) from choosing actions that will take his or her life.
If the mother (parents) of an unborn child can't take actions in accordance with their beliefs that will result in the child's death, how can you possibly argue that the parents of a born child (11 years old, in this case) have the right to take actions (or in this case inaction) that will take their child's life.
Let's be consistent here: the child has rights too, and we have long had laws that allow the community (via the state) to intervene when the parents takes actions that constitute abuse and/or a threat to the child's life.
I think this is a case where my more libertarian tendencies show.
Fighting for conservatism one day at a time.
The First Amendment does allow the free exercise of religion, yes. But we set limits on that.
Who decides which kinds of medical care trump the Constitution? How much power do we grant unelected, unaccountable doctors who may have numerous agendas of their own to turn children into the property of the state?
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
on most matters the state should bow to the will of the parents, but in life and death issues the state has an overwhelming cause for action to see that the child has medical care pursuant to keeping the child (who is a citizen with rights) alive.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
This is what happens when individuals try to interpret for themselves the Word of God. Jesus used things of the natural world to cure, as when he mixed his own saliva with dirt to form a mud which he then used to cure a blind man.
Religion is always about a relationship with God. He reaches out to us, we respond to his call. But, these parents unfortunately practiced what many Christians do, namely, thinking that they should isolate themselves from the things of this world. We must trust God in his goodness and believe that in everything there is a reason and purpose. It is the user who perverts the purpose. Legitimate medical practices should never be shunned, yet no medical practice or cure succeeds unless it is the will of God.
As to the legal implications of this, I have no idea. As a parent, I resent the intrusion of the government into the raising of my children yet, I do believe that children should be protected from physical harm at all costs.
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God has placed obvious limits on man's intelligence but none what-so-ever on his stupidity.
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I do not know anything about this case, other that what you have provided. However, denying a sick child medicine is child abuse and in this case could be manslaughter.
I would not watch Nancy Grace at gunpoint, so Grace's opinion is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is there are SOME looneys who eschew modern medicine and science. They say if you pray enough, God will heal you. When person x,y, and Z die, they are called by their fellow parishioners unworthy, or not pious enough.
If an adult chooses to join a cult that denounces modern medicine, that is their business. But when someone forces another living being to die by lack of treatment, that is a crime.
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Molon Labe!