Somebody here been talking about nitric acid lately?
Because we just found a *LOT*
By Jeff Emanuel Posted in War | WMD — Comments (32) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
According to the AP:
U.S. forces seized 3,000 gallons of nitric acid in a weapons cache hidden in a warehouse in eastern Baghdad, the military said Wednesday.
The discovery was made last Thursday during a routine cordon and search operation, the U.S. military said in a statement. Troops had been searching for suspects accused of planting car bombs in the area, it said.[...]
Three Iraqi suspects were detained in the operation, and other confiscated items included mobile phones, vehicle license plates, identification cards, batteries and ammunition, the statement said.
3,000 gallons? Now that's an awful lot of chemicals being used to make explosives. Just don't refer to the final product as a "chemical explosive" (unless you have the time and energy to define and explain WMD, "chemical weapons," and "dual use" - which, at this moment, I do not).
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Somebody here been talking about nitric acid lately? 32 Comments (0 topical, 32 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »
We all know that if it doesn't conform to lefty worldview than it isn't really important, it's not really WMDs, it's really meant to grow green grass in Iraq, it makes your teeth whiter and is filled with yum-yum wholesome goodness.
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The CIA has better politicians than it has spies - Fred Thompson
A random walk through my head at Indiscriminate Tastes
Do you have any references that classify nitric acid as a chemical weapon? I have worked in the CBRN field, and have never heard it classified as such. It's unclear to me how one would even use it as a WMD. The vapor pressure of nitric acid is high enough that it is unlikely to persist as an aerosol, nor would it present much of a vapor hazard. If you can't disseminate the agent beyond the initial blast, it doesn't persist, and it doesn't cause much of a residual danger, it is a pretty sorry weapon. Chlorine is FAR more dangerous, probably the most dangerous toxic industrial chemical.
...unless you're mugging for a job at the UN.
You won't find a reference for nitric acid as WMD because the substance itself is little more than a corrosive acid in its native state.
Its primary role --especially in some warehouse in Iraq-- is as a nitrating agent in the manufacture of explosives and incendiaries. Toluene is converted to trinitrotoluene (TNT), phenol or benzene are converted to trinitrophenol (picric acid), cotton is nitrated similarly (guncotton), and glycerin is converted to nitroglycerine (BOOM).
Or ammonium nitrate (OKLAHOMA CITY).
But hey, it's just innocent nitric acid. In a warehouse in Iraq. That no one claims. Just sitting there not hurting anyone.
The UN will turn a blind eye because its not on their list, on the technicality that because nitric acid itself doesn't even burn, much less explode, it can't be defined as a WMD.
And by the way, chlorine gas is roughly as dangerous than nitric acid, from which the orange gaseous oxide of nitrogen, N2O5, may be generated under the right conditions. Molecule for molecule I can't say which one is worse as an inhalation hazard. It's just that chlorine is more convenient a weapon, because it already comes in transport vehicles, ready to ship to the nearest water purification facility.
Or to the nearest bazaar by murderous terrorists.
It's a pity, really. Onsite generation, and the immediate consumption of chlorine at water purification facilities, rather than storage for transport, would take a lot of the power out of terrorist hands for this kind of attack...
And their are far worse substances out there that you can't even smell, that can kill far more people should terrorists ever get the opportunity to obtain, or manufacture them.
Chlorine don't even rate. Let's hope they stay so unsophisticated.
an explanation on why they thought that gasoline was nitric acid earlier in the week? Was it just a mix up?
Anyway, it seems that the terrorists are getting more innovative and deadly with their attacks. 180 dead today, Baghdad exploding regularly, chlorine attacks in Anbar, Green Zone infiltration, now this. Plus Maliki pulling out his MPs.
Things are not looking good for Iraq.
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain
That it had to do with the containers it was in. According to Stars and Stripes, "'The containers were consistent with those normally used to transport nitric acid, but upon examination, they were found to be filled with gasoline,' a military statement read."
I wonder if there's a connection. That was in northern Baghdad, no?
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain
I notice that this discovery was last Thursday, and the report of nitric acid was the following Monday. I guess the military suspects there may be a lot more that will turn up.
It was gasoline, confused with nitric acid because of a container?
And Zerodivisor, is it the consensus that nitric acid is not to be considered a WMD?
I'm just wondering if there was any basis for a story here.
yesterday's story. They found some nitric containers that turned out to be carrying gasoline, but today it's the real deal. As for your second question, given the amount found and the other contraband found along with the acid, I think we can safely assume they weren't using it for toothpaste.
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain
hmmm, but I'm still wondering about its use. it must be more available than chlorine
isn't the most effective chemical to inflict maximum damage. But I suppose that the insurgents will use anything they can get their hands on. Maybe someone else can clarify how one would acquire nitric acid and what the industries are that use it commonly.
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain
Nitric acid is widely available as a "PH down" for pools and fertilizer PH adjustment. But I am sure there are nastier applications.
"ph down" for pools is generally hydrochloric acid, sometimes
called muriatic acid, or if it is a dry chemical, sodium bisulfate.
Nitric acid is seldom used in pools.
Those dichlor and trichlor tablets, for chlorinating pools,
are harder for me to deal with than the acids. The buckets
they come in build up chlorine inside them, and it's
important to avoid getting even a slight whiff of it. It's
very unpleasant.
It takes years, of course, and some people actually thrive on the diet.
Nevertheless, cheeseburgers are ipso facto a weapon of mass destruction recently found in Iraq, meaning we were right to invade!
This is the kind of logic these stupid nitric acid threads have. Get over it, folks, it turns out Bush was wrong about that. You 're reaching. There are lots of reasons to be in Iraq (no more Saddam Hussein, we control the oil now, democracy has come to the middle east, protect Israel, we control the sand now - good for making glass, etc.) But the whole thing about weapons of mass destruction - Saddam evidently didn't have any more than my high school chemistry teacher (and he wasn't even as hot).
Heads: If Bush was wrong on WMD, then so was EVERYONE. You, Me, Pelosi, Murtha, Reid, Clinton, Kerry - EVERYONE! You have to be being this obtuse on purpose.
Tails: Well, just see rbdwiggins comment. Or maybe that, somehow (maybe obtusely), doesn't count.
I know my high school chemistry teacher never had two tons of low-enriched uranium.
Not only cheeseburgers can kill but posts like yours. Look what it's done to your brain cells, save yourself, stop reading the NY Times
Did your high school chemistry have a mustache, did she [ I hope it was a she] throw failing students feet first into industrial shredders, did she buy six months from the oil-for-food barons over at your Valhalla, the UN, the worlds last hope for mega-scandals and selling kids and women down the river.
Perhaps she was a small arms instructor at Salman Park where some of the 8,000 terrorists were beneficiaries of Saddams hospitality, learning how to be missionaries for the Religion of Peace, although there was no connection between Saddam and terrorists. You have to reach 10,000 trainees before it counts, right?
Last, did your hot HS teacher [ although we don't know what your standards are] routinely drink nitric acid, a habit she might have passed on to at least one of her students. Doable if washed down with sufficient amounts of vodka, which brings us back to where I began.
"a man's admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the contempt he feels for those around him". Tocqueville
that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction?
The left's meme, BushLied,™ is based on the Iraq Survey Group's inability to find "large stock piles of weapons of mass destruction." I'm sorry, but that just doesn't cut it.
The proper question is: "Every credible intelligence agency in the entire world knew that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. Where are they?"
All but ignored by the left and their cronies in the media wing of the Democrat Party, i.e. the PartisanPress,™ is this: Addendums to the Comprehensive Report - March 2005 The report certainly does not support BushLied.™
It is not the least bit comforting to know that the Iraq Survey Group was only able to search less than 10% of the facilities from their list of approximately 1500 known or suspected weapons sites before conditions on the ground forced them to leave Iraq.
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“The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.” – Ronald Reagan
The use of the words "chemical explosive" to imply something unusually dangerous or out of the ordinary is pretty much without useful meaning.
Why the nitric acid in Iraq? This, from George Smith (PhD in chemistry) might help:
"Nitric acid is one of the big three common strong inorganic acids, hydrochloric and sulfuric being the other two. It wouldn't be practical as a chemical weapon and there's no way to make it so. Of the three acids mentioned, it's the easiest to handle, although all are common and pose no threat when clearly labeled. Burns skin slowly, staining it yellow. Is not particularly hazardous if spilled although you wouldn't want to walk in it. In terms of inorganic acid spills, HCl [hydrochloric acid] makes a bigger and far more noticeable mess. And as a corrosive directly against skin, sulfuric acid is the worst of the three. None have any application as chemical weapons in the classic sense.
HN03 [nitric acid] can be used to make homemade TNT -- although why this would be necessary in Iraq is beyond me. You would have suspected to find a lot of toluene and sulfuric acid, too, if this were the case.
Looks like the diversion of industrial chemicals, hoping they'll get lucky with something. That won't happen with the level of savvy which seems to be indicated."
...nitric acid can be used to nitrate most anything organic, to create explosives.
Sulfuric acid is head-and-shoulders the most commonly used acid in the petroleum industry as a dehydrating and sulfonating agent. Toluene is a mere byproduct of the industry, and flows like water, too.
Nitric acid is not part of the petroleum industry, it's like liquid gold to the terrorist.
All these acids in concentrated form are corrosive and deadly. Nitric acid is the special case, and must never be ignored.
Mechanical would be a pressure vessel. Think an air tank thats over pressurized and punctured.
Electrical is pretty much pointless but possible. If you have a superconducting ring and it quenches it will release its energy. Capacitors can explosively fail.
Nuke well lets pray thats not an issue.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
It seems to me that we should really be asking why were they able to organise such a large quantity of the stuff in the first place. And why is it so difficult for us to prevent them from organising these bomb-making factories in a country which we have been in control of (just about) for the past several years?
Whilst I understand the urge to point to these things and say "look, here is an example of what the bad guys are doing" I don't think you can discount that it has the potential to also make us look foolish.
If tomorrow there is a news story that the insurgents have a fully functioning nuclear reactor up and running in a Baghdad suburb, that would not be evidence that our cause is just (though it is), it would rightly be taken as evidence of the degree that we have lost control of the situation.
Yes, finding this stuff is a success, and yes the media never reports any success, that is a given. But the existence of this kind of stockpile in the first place should be of greater concern to us all.
"Personally I am always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught" - Winston Churchill
...but it's a lot for making an uncountable number of IED's, or many larger weapons.
But your not going to tell me that synthesizing explosives in a war zone is anyones first choice. You also can't say that keeping large quantities of nitric acid around when you may be attacked is a preferred situation.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Obviously in this case the nitric acid was being used for explosives. However, nitric acid is an extremely important and widely used industrial chemical. It is not going to be removed or secured in the supply chain in Iraq.
Its only secured in this country in a round about sense. You can make it easily. And the home made kind is high enough quality for simple high explosives manufacturing, like TNT or nitro-glycerin.
Again, obviously this cache was being used for nefarious purposes. But nitric acid is not a WMD.
Anyone catch this Melanie Phillips column in (British) Spectator?
‘I found Saddam’s WMD bunkers’
Melanie PhillipsIt’s a fair bet that you have never heard of a guy called Dave Gaubatz. It’s also a fair bet that you think the hunt for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq has found absolutely nothing, nada, zilch; and that therefore there never were any WMD programmes in Saddam’s Iraq to justify the war ostensibly waged to protect the world from Saddam’s use of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons.
Dave Gaubatz, however, says you could not be more wrong. Saddam’s WMD did exist. He should know because he found the sites where he is certain they were stored. And the reason you don’t know about this is that the American administration failed to act on his information, ‘lost’ his classified reports and is now doing everything it can to prevent disclosure of the terrible fact that, through its own incompetence, it allowed Saddam’s WMD to end up in the hands of the very terrorist states against whom it is so controversially at war....
I most certainly have heard of Paul (Dave) Gaubatz, and this is from a Frontpage symposium in which he participated regarding Iraq's WMD's:
Iraq, WMD’s and Troubling Revelations
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“The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.” – Ronald Reagan
You really have to ask what was going on.
Sale at Corrosives R Us ?
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777